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Server Time: 10/15/2008 3:35:39 PM PACIFIC |
 mid/low pairs, Nick Prigo, 29. Apr 2003 18:13 | ||
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| I'm pretty new to poker and am having a lot of trouble playing mid and low pocket pairs. Everytime an overcard to my pair is flopped I cant help but want to fold my hand. How do people recommend playing these starting hands in terms of knowing when to fold. Thanks | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, Piers Majestyk, 29. Apr 2003 18:43 | ||
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| Unless your game is very loose with every hand having 5way or better action you should fold your lower pairs in early position (22-77?). Of course if your 3rd to act and the first 2 to act have called go ahead and call even from the early position because you are likely to get at least 5 callers for the flop. From middle position with no action I will either raise or fold these low pairs depending on the table (most of the time leaning more to the fold option). With pairs 8 and high I will generally try to see a flop unless I'm in early position and the game is extremely tough which isn''t often or I wouldn't be sitting in it for long. I believe you should take a flop with your pairs in the last two positions, raising if no one has called and perhaps raising if only one other person has called from middle position. What yout're looking for is multiway pots. In most situations the pot odds will not be as good as the odds for you too hit your set so you need to have a volume pot so when you do hit the set someone will be in there to cover the initial bad odds you took. If you miss the set with these pairs and there are overcards which there likely will be you should dump these hands when facing any action at all. The odds to hit your set on the turn are 22.5:1 and most pots won't be laying you near the odds to keep drawing. Hope that helps some, generally hit your set and pray it holds up:) or dump it on the flop when you miss unless there is some reason to believe you are still ahead. | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, 4 POKER, 29. Apr 2003 18:55 | ||
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| If you're not sure how to play the low pairs then I suggest that you throw them away pre-flop. They are not big money winners anyway. If you're in late position and your opponents have already folded to you, then yes, you can play them and maybe even put in a raise to try and steal the blinds. But what I normally do is, and this all depends on the tightness/looseness of the game: if I'm in early position and I'm holding a pair 6-6 or lower, I usually just throw it away, especially the real small pairs- they're awful holdings in early position. There's too many players who haven't acted yet and I wouldn't want the betting to get too expensive by the time it got back to me,#1, I wouldn't put in multiple bets with a small pocket pair and #2, I'd rather not put in the first bet to begin with, it's just a waste of a call because of the bad position. Now, if I were in late position and several people limped in, then I would limp in too in hoping to flop a set, but I wouldn't continue with the hand if I didn't flop something absolutely perfect... there's just too many hands and overcards that would have me beat. Really small pocket pairs like, 2-2, 3-3, and 4-4, are marginal calls at best from any position, unless you're trying to steal the blinds.(I'm not even sure that I would raise with 2-2 or 3-3 in late position). Just keep in mind that small to medium pairs can be played if all the circumstances favor you,ie, being able to limp in cheaply, multi-way pot that will give you good pot odds if you hit, and most important, the smarts to just throw them away when you don't flop a set or at least the nut straight draw. If you do happen to flop a set, play it fast and hard; there will be too many players who will call the flop if it's cheap to them, and once they see the turn, there might be too many drawing hands out there now making your set very vulnerable, so play them strong when they do hit. The reason that you feel compelled to throw these pairs away on the flop is because, unless you do flop a set, there will be nothing on the flop but a bunch of overcards- and how could you know if your pair is any good in that spot...you can't. So my advice would be to either throw them away pre-flop and wait for a much stronger holding, especially if you're just learning the game, or get in cheaply and get out cheaply. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, noiseboy, 30. Apr 2003 15:58 | ||
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| Hey 4 poker, I don't think this happens much in your games, since I think you play at tougher tables than me. Luckily, there is a lot of loose action in California cardrooms. Anyway, if you in late position and have more than 6 people in the pot, is there anything wrong with a raise on a small to medium pair? I do this sometimes to build a pot when there are a lot of people in anyway, and I want to give them a reason to stay if I hit my set. I figure if someon hits a straight or flush on the turn, I still have redraws to a full house or quads and will be getting the odds to do so. Of course, if I don't hit the flop, I'm out of there. I realize that I could be in a bad situation if someone in the blinds reraises, but that almost never happens. | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, 4 POKER, 30. Apr 2003 16:10 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 15:58 noiseboy wrote: > Hey 4 poker, > > I don't think this happens much in your games, since I think you play at tougher tables > than me. Luckily, there is a lot of loose action in California cardrooms. Anyway, if you > in late position and have more than 6 people in the pot, is there anything wrong with a > raise on a small to medium pair? I do this sometimes to build a pot when there are a lot > of people in anyway, and I want to give them a reason to stay if I hit my set. I figure > if someon hits a straight or flush on the turn, I still have redraws to a full house or > quads and will be getting the odds to do so. > > Of course, if I don't hit the flop, I'm out of there. I realize that I could be in a bad > situation if someone in the blinds reraises, but that almost never happens. Yes, I do occasionally raise with a medium pocket pair if I'm in late position and there are several players in already... but that is so rare because once the pot is of substantial size already, I feel my pot odds are there without having to raise it pre-flop. I never play the hand the same way every single time, BUT, if you expect to lose a little bit less, (in the long run) then I suggest you limp as opposed to raising. I think the games in California are great, yes they are extremely aggresive and quite loose for the most part... I would probably tend to be a little more straightfoward with my betting and my calling because I would hate to raise with a medium pair only to see it come back to me for the maximum. Those games are tough because they are so loose, you really have to adjust your game to even stand a chance. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, noiseboy, 30. Apr 2003 16:25 | ||
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| Yep, the extremely loose/aggressive games do get crazy. Actually, sometimes they will reraise you, but in these types of games usually you won't lose any players so you still are getting odds, they will often call even if it is capped. Also, since you raised before the flop, your hand is well concealed so you often have other people raising you on the flop, when you have hit your set. However, the downside of this play is that it will increase your fluctuations, in games that are already a bit of a roller coaster ride to begin with. For these games, I think the standard 300 BB bankroll might be a little low, especially if you are making these types of risky plays. | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, stdioh, 1. May 2003 09:06 | ||
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| Raising your small pairs in late position with many limpers is a good thing for value. You're trying to hit your set and you have pot odds to do it, so now go ahead and built your pot. The blinds should come in with anything halfway decent because they will have pot odds. | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, noiseboy, 30. Apr 2003 16:18 | ||
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| One more question, I know you say that middle and small pairs are terrible up front, and I wholeheartedly agree with you under almost all game conditions. However, if you were fortunate enough to be in an extremely loose/passive game say an average of 6-7 callers per flop with virtually no raising, wouldn't the implied odds then make it correct to call with ANY pair from ANY position? Granted, I know this type of game is extremely rare, even in CA where the games are very loose, but tend to be aggressive, so you definitely would not want to call up front with these if there is much chance of a raise. | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, Andrew Wells, 30. Apr 2003 21:05 | ||
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| If it's really that loose/passive you can call UTG with any pair plus AXs and KXs. | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, 4 POKER, 30. Apr 2003 21:29 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 16:18 noiseboy wrote: > One more question, I know you say that middle and small pairs are terrible up front, and I > wholeheartedly agree with you under almost all game conditions. However, if you were > fortunate enough to be in an extremely loose/passive game say an average of 6-7 callers > per flop with virtually no raising, wouldn't the implied odds then make it correct to call > with ANY pair from ANY position? > > Granted, I know this type of game is extremely rare, even in CA where the games are very > loose, but tend to be aggressive, so you definitely would not want to call up front with > these if there is much chance of a raise. Well, the loose/passive games definitely make your small pairs more valuable and I do think that you can limp in more with them even in an early position. My thoughts were based on the 'average and typical" hold-em game, but I guess if you can find a loose/passive game, then yes, I would be making more calls with these startings. But, if I didn't flop a set, I wouldn't bet nor would I call a bet, unless of course i held 6-6, and the flop was 4,5,7. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, stdioh, 1. May 2003 09:08 | ||
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| If I'm playing in a very loose passive game I will call UTG with A2s or with 22, but in general this is a losing thing to do, since if you are not in a very loose very passive game, even if you get your pot odds you are still out of position and this costs you bets more than you might think. | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, jdsalinger, 29. Apr 2003 19:03 | ||
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| low pairs will loose you lots of money at low limit, middle and high limits. They aren't worth playing at low or middle or even high limits in my opinion. These low pair are really for NL or PL where the blinds are really small and you hope to hit a set against someone holding an A or K that will pay you nicely. To be honest my best streaks in low and middle limits involved not getting involved even with the middle pairs (I include 10's and J's as middle pairs). Usually in these games you've got one guy drawing to overcards, another is open ended, one going for a gut shot and one going for a flush, and one going for 2 pair. You'll get drawn out by one of those. Now this is a bit of a stretch but similar scenarios aren't uncommon. Even if you have the best hand (ie 10's and the flop comes QKx) if someone with J10 bets behind you it becomes a really tough call. Too many people call with J8,J9,Q9,Q10 even Q5 and similar etc at these limits. I stick to high cards, draw when there are 2 or more people in the pot, and try to calculate future possible bets into a draw that doesn't necessarily have odds for you. 90% of these people will pay you off. So unless you plan to play NL or PL stay away from these and hands that make you make tough decisions (JQ A10 etc). | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, online strategy may vary, jdsalinger, 29. Apr 2003 19:26 | ||
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| one caveat is that online I do play these because they do hit a lot more in cyberspace. I have no proof but I can say it's better than the 7.5 to 1 shot for me online. | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, online strategy may vary, Piers Majestyk, 29. Apr 2003 23:05 | ||
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| I think to not play these low pairs at all is a mistake. I myself make more money overall on sets (of all ranks) than of any other hand. That being said I probably also loose the greatest amount when I do flop a set and lose with it because I try to maximize the amount in the pot by checkraising, reraising etc. You just have to not invest any additional money into the pot if you miss the flop. If you hit your set and lose you should probably loose a few extra bets if you're playing it right. I will include a synopsis of my pokertracker results for just my pairs over the last two months. Granted it's a long way from being several hundred hands on each pair but I think it gives a pretty good idea of what kind of return you can expect per hand. These hands are mainly from 2/4-5/10 limits #times #timeswon$ Avg.win/hand total $ won AA 27 19 11.63 314.00 KK 31 23 18.22 564.75 QQ 34 19 10.79 367.00 JJ 46 28 3.72 171.00 1010 27 13 1.74 47.00 99 29 16 8.08 234.25 88 38 16 1.97 75.00 77 37 8 (-0.03) (-1.00) 66 39 13 (-0.77) (-30.00) 55 39 10 (-1.13) (-44.00) 44 44 14 5.98 263.00 33 34 9 1.08 36.75 22 35 8 0.14 5.00 ======================================================= 460 196 (42.6%) 4.35 2002.75 | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, online strategy may vary, jdsalinger, 30. Apr 2003 00:09 | ||
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| I agree online it's a money maker for me. And of course there is no sure answer for anything as it is highly situational. Perhaps because everyone thinks you're bluffing them online so sets tend to make a little more. In a regular casino it's just a way to loose money at limit hold'em. But if the entire table never raises preflop then sure or if you're last fine. I just find that in these low limits in SoCal land of the crazies/super aggro. Usually only in NL and PL with small blinds. Are your stats for limit or NL it's really iffy in limit for me. I still try to stay away from them as I don't like the swings as much (just depends on style really). I don't have the stats for it but probably 85% of the money made on small pairs for me reside in NL PL. always good to see some stats though | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, stdioh, 30. Apr 2003 09:16 | ||
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| There is nothing wrong with folding your pocket pair when an overcard is flopped - that is what you are supposed to do, generally. If I'm holding something like 77, this hand plays very well heads up, when you don't need to have an overpair or set to win with it, necessarilly and it plays very well against a large field where the plan is to flop a set. The old rule with pocket pairs on the flop is, "no set, no bet." Stick to that religiously unless some very odd situation comes up and you think you are good...like a flop of 888 or 552 or such thing. Even then, it is a hand to be played with a lot of caution. The other thing that isn't terrible with them is when they run into straights. Something like 77 with a board of 458 rainbow isn't terribly bad, so long as there are lots of players in the hand. You have your gutshot, plus your outs to a set. If you make the gutshot then chances are good that you're not chopping as other 7's aren't too likely to be around and to have hung on this long. If you make your set then depending on table conditions you're probably not up against anybody with a 6 and you have redraws to a tight. And of course if nobody has an 8 then your 7's might just win the thing outright. If I have a hand like 77 with a board of 458 rainbow I'll call it a marginal hand to call, but something worth playing. I'll usually bet agressively with a hand like this in the hopes of taking the money now - it's a nice hand to semibluf with since you'll often fold off other gutshots and it is a raggety enough board that you can often take it now if there isn't an overpair out there. If that goes South, you've got 6 outs to try to snag. But in general, small and middle pocket pairs should have you saying to yourself, "no set, no bet." | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, Don Quixote, 30. Apr 2003 11:34 | ||
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| Nick, I have read all the responses to your post. There is some great information there for you. I wish I had had it when I first started because it would have saved me a lot of money, and money saved is money earned. I would like to point out that high pocket pairs are about as worthless as low/mid pairs if an overcard comes. It was easier for me to fold the smaller pairs than the high pairs, but the same principal applies to both, IMHO. Do you more experienced and knowledgeable players agree with this? I have had my poker tracker for exactly two months, and I thought my stats would be helpful, so here they are: In about 7,000 hands played in March and April, the hands I won with are as follows: Off-suited connectors 9.33% Suited connectors 18.11% Suited only 11.14% Pairs 35.25% Poker Tracker helped me to see my problem areas. For example, in March my BB win rate was only 1.77. In April it had jumped to 6.30, with an average of 4.18 for both months combined. I made money on every pocket pair except 44 and 33. I did well on 22 believe it or not. Follow the advice in the other posts on playing pairs. Hope readers dont mind my offering some more information regarding the play of the other winners mentioned above. Be careful playing off-suit connectors. I have found that playing K/face and Q/face in early and middle positions is a losing proposition. Small and mid suited connectors require lots of callers just as pairs do. Any suited cards like lots of company. Dont get suckered into playing every pocket w/suited connectors. Playing pairs has been pretty well covered. One last thing: When playing Ace/rag suited and a flush draw doesnt flop and the flop contains an Ace, proceed with caution. If my kicker is weak, I will usually check. If there are a couple of other players still in and there is action, I fold my aces. Kicker problems can be a big leak in your game. Kicker problems can occur in many situations, so always be aware of your kicker. Hope this is helpful. I also would appreciate anyone's telling me if I am incorrect in any of the above. Don Quixote on 29. Apr 2003 18:13 Nick Prigo wrote: > I'm pretty new to poker and am having a lot of trouble playing mid and low > pocket pairs. Everytime an overcard to my pair is flopped I cant help but want > to fold my hand. How do people recommend playing these starting hands in terms > of knowing when to fold. Thanks | ||
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| Re: mid/low pairs, 4 POKER, 30. Apr 2003 12:53 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 11:34 Don Quixote wrote: > Nick, I have read all the responses to your post. There is some great information > there for you. I wish I had had it when I first started because it would have saved > me a lot of money, and money saved is money earned. > > I would like to point out that high pocket pairs are about as worthless as low/mid > pairs if an overcard comes. It was easier for me to fold the smaller pairs than the > high pairs, but the same principal applies to both, IMHO. Do you more experienced > and knowledgeable players agree with this? I think you brought up a very valid point. Reasons being because many players just hate to throw away that big pocket pair when there are 1 or 2 overcards, even with one overcard sometimes they know in there heart it's not the best but they still call anyway. It looks like a better hand then if he were to be holding a small pair, but in essence it's the same. 4 POKER > > I have had my poker tracker for exactly two months, and I thought my stats would be > helpful, so here they are: > > In about 7,000 hands played in March and April, the hands I won with are as > follows: > > Off-suited connectors 9.33% > Suited connectors 18.11% > Suited only 11.14% > Pairs 35.25% > > Poker Tracker helped me to see my problem areas. For example, in March my BB win > rate was only 1.77. In April it had jumped to 6.30, with an average of 4.18 for both > months combined. > > I made money on every pocket pair except 44 and 33. I did well on 22 believe it or > not. Follow the advice in the other posts on playing pairs. > > Hope readers dont mind my offering some more information regarding the play of the > other winners mentioned above. Be careful playing off-suit connectors. I have found > that playing K/face and Q/face in early and middle positions is a losing proposition. > Small and mid suited connectors require lots of callers just as pairs do. Any > suited cards like lots of company. Dont get suckered into playing every pocket > w/suited connectors. Playing pairs has been pretty well covered. > > One last thing: When playing Ace/rag suited and a flush draw doesnt flop and the > flop contains an Ace, proceed with caution. If my kicker is weak, I will usually > check. If there are a couple of other players still in and there is action, I fold > my aces. Kicker problems can be a big leak in your game. Kicker problems can occur > in many situations, so always be aware of your kicker. > > Hope this is helpful. I also would appreciate anyone's telling me if I am incorrect > in any of the above. > > Don Quixote > > > > > on 29. Apr 2003 18:13 Nick Prigo wrote: > > I'm pretty new to poker and am having a lot of trouble playing mid and low > > pocket pairs. Everytime an overcard to my pair is flopped I cant help but want > > to fold my hand. How do people recommend playing these starting hands in terms > > of knowing when to fold. Thanks | ||
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