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Server Time: 8/21/2008 9:42:44 PM PACIFIC |
 Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, spartan51, 28. Apr 2003 13:03 | ||
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| Hi 4 Poker, Let me first say I am very impressed by your postings here and always look for your replys as I think you always offer solid advice. In your most recent reply to Tron's playing good post, it sounded like you became a successful winning player by applying some money management techninques to your play. I asked a question concerning taking a money management approach to my play recently and across the board I was told not to. My records inidcate that if I would have a limit on how much I would lose at any one sesssion and also book a win as soon as it reached a certain level, my win rate and bankroll would be more than double than what it is now. These records constitute over 500 hours of online play. So much question to you is do you feel that money management techniques do work for some players and what type of management techniques do you use. ( for example, percentage of bankroll for capping wins and losses.) Given my records, I feel that the answer is yes for me, but everyone until now has told me no. Looking forward to your response. Thanks in advance. | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, shorn, 28. Apr 2003 13:20 | ||
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| I am not 4 POKER, but I have started to believe that for me, a similar approach to what you described would work. If I were a robot that never got tired, never had issues going on outside of poker, and always was on a completely even keel, then yes "staying and playing even though you are losing because the game is good" and "it is all one big game in the long run" would be more applicable. However, just like in business and economics, sometimes textbook theories don't work well in the real world. I will be interested in hearing how 4P handles his management. | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 13:24 | ||
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| If you have total control over yourself, then life is one big session and it doesn't matter when you end it. If you cannot control yourself and tilt when you are losing or rush when you are winning, then indeed you are best off going home when you post enough of a win or loss. Just remember that a session of poker is a very arbitrary period of time, number of hands, etc. | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, shorn, 28. Apr 2003 13:42 | ||
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| That's all true, but I don't know any human being that is not ever susceptible to his/her surroundings and what is going on in other aspects of life. It also assumes that each day that you play, the game is the same and you just pick up where you left off. That's BS. Now, I am not saying that you shouldn't try your best to play optimally at all times given the current game situation; but, if playing optimally (for you as an individual becasue nono of us are robots) means that you should book a few wins and leave even when the game is good (because you will be mentally better off which should help your next session), then I think it is a more +EV play to leave (again, for you) than staying "because the game is good". | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 14:12 | ||
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| I think that there are games good enough that you should slug back the coffee and stick in for the long haul - unless you have to drop off your daughter at ballet, in which case *leave anyway*. That said, there are lots of reasons to stay or to go, and yes, money management can be one of them, but it is not a reason to leave in and of itself. If money management problems cause you to play poorly then leave because you are playing poorly - don't leave just because of the current status of your stack. | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, shorn, 29. Apr 2003 04:51 | ||
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| OK, that's fair. There are definitely a few games that you will run into throughout the course of your career where using the portable coffee I.V. is worth it (the 15-30 at Artichoke Joe's in San Bruno comes to mind) even if you are losing. My point is that over the long haul for a lot of players (myself included), confidence in your game is as important if not more important than how good a game is in terms of expectation. I could be sitting in a great game, but if I have had 5 losing sessions in a row and haven't taken a break from poker, then I should probably get up from the table at some point either to book a nice win or to book only a small loss because mentally I won't be at my sharpest. My confidence level is something that i definitely need to work on and I hope that one day I can come close to being a player that is always even keel regardless of result, but I am not there yet. So, for now it is better for me to book some modest wins and feel good about my game than to always try to maximize a win at a great table. | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, 4 POKER, 29. Apr 2003 13:23 | ||
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| on 29. Apr 2003 04:51 shorn wrote: > OK, that's fair. There are definitely a few games that you will run into throughout the course of > your career where using the portable coffee I.V. is worth it (the 15-30 at Artichoke Joe's in San > Bruno comes to mind) even if you are losing. > > My point is that over the long haul for a lot of players (myself included), confidence in your game > is as important if not more important than how good a game is in terms of expectation. I could be > sitting in a great game, but if I have had 5 losing sessions in a row and haven't taken a break from > poker, then I should probably get up from the table at some point either to book a nice win or to > book only a small loss because mentally I won't be at my sharpest. > > My confidence level is something that i definitely need to work on and I hope that one day I can > come close to being a player that is always even keel regardless of result, but I am not there yet. > So, for now it is better for me to book some modest wins and feel good about my game than to always > try to maximize a win at a great table. Booking modest wins is great as long as you're booking modest losses as well. It's very important that you realize that. If your wins out number your losses, you will be able to use that strategy to being a winning player. Having confidence is very important. Remember that if you can play shorter sessions (about 4 hours), it will enable you to stay in focus, and the focus that we all must have if we expect to be winning players is highly under-rated. A combination of the two will be more rewarding to you $$$. Good luck 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, 4 POKER, 28. Apr 2003 15:59 | ||
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| Hi Spartan 51, First let me say that what may work for me may not necessarily work for somebody else. However, I have tried many different approaches to winning poker and the key ingredient that has enabled me to continue year after year was discipline control. I can not advocate that enough for without it I would not have a poker career. Discipline to me means, knowing when to quit regardless of the hours that I put in to a game. I don't drain myself trying to put in a certain quota of hours if it is not needed. I play in games where I think I might have an advantage, I play very selectively when I decide if I want to play a hand or not but once I do commit to a hand, I feel that I am getting the "best of it" and I play my hands very aggressively. I try not to miss any bets and I almost always maximize my win on every hand that I play. I also never try to put in good money after bad; when I am beat, I fold, and it's that simple. I am not there to prove anything or win the most pots, I am simply there to maximize on the ones that I do win. I never play tired - if I'm in a game whether I'm winning or losing, I won't sit there if I don't feel that I am as sharp as I'm supposed to be. Table selection has always been something that I feel very strongly about. Sometimes those so called "great" games are not as good as they seem, the game becomes a showdown and limits the skilled players advantage. Yes you must be able to adjust in a game but for me I prefer to play in games where I can have some sort of control over my opponents and use my skills to my advantage. The luck factor is often too much to overcome in really loose games. But everyone has there preference, you just have to keep records whether mentally or on paper to which games seem to be the most profitable ones for you. As far as this money management thing goes, You must start out with an adequate bankroll for the limits that you are going to be playing in, (a minimum of 300 big bets), and don't move up to the next limit until your bankroll is sufficient to do so. You must be able to play poker and pay all of your living expenses. If you have a present job then make sure you keep your poker bankroll separate from your other earnings. Take a percentage of your saved money to play poker, start at a limit that will allow you to play comfortably but correctly at the same time. Keep records of your wins and your losses. Take notes after the session is over on how many hours you put in verses the money that you made- this will give you an idea on how much your earn is per hour. When I play in a game, I first make sure that the game is one that I can beat, I have no ego when it comes to realizing that, "hey, I might be a little outclassed here", I pick my spots very carefully. If I'm winning in the game and I feel that I have a good control over the table then I continue to play as to try and earn as much as possible. If I'm up a certain amount, let's say $800, if I give a certain percentage of it back, I quit. Now others may disagree with me on this one but I can only tell you what I do and what has worked for me. I would never give more then half of my win back in any one session, unless of course the win was so small that half wouldn't even add up to playing out one hand. I'm just trying to tell you that when I have a decent win sitting in front of me, I have enough respect for money to make sure that I go home with a win as well. I do sit in the game for as long as I possibly can, feeling my best at all times, If there's a chance for me to make another $800, then I stay, but if I see myself giving back too much of my win, then I definitely quit for sure. If I am losing in a game, I will continue to play as long as I feel that I am playing my best game of poker and that I'm not losing because I might be too tired or I'm upset about something. As long as I think that the game is a good game for me, I will stay; I might not stay as long,for if I have already put in my share of hours I will just call it a day, book a loss and come back tomorrow. I don't expect to win every session I play so there is no need to sit in the game when I'm losing just to try and get my money back. That is when you can lose focus. The KEY thing for me is to NEVER get burried in ANY game. I win a good percentage of the sessions I play, my wins are never usually anything to write home about, there usually modest in relative to the limits I play in but... my losses are just the same, modest. And it's okay for me to not book super big wins because my losses are not big either. A big portion of my bankroll came from having the ability to maximize on the hands that I did win while still being able to keep the hands that I do lose to a minimum,ie. folding Aces on the flop when you're obviously beat, folding an openended straight draw to two big bets when I'm not getting the correct pot odds to continue. That is how I keep a good hold on my money. I play when I'm getting the best of it, leave when I am not, I make soundminded and clear decisions, I try to never go on tilt, (which takes a lot of patience and more then that it takes the true understanding of why we are there in the first place, $$ and it takes the absolute respect for money and what its value really is.) . Never play in a game that can wipe out your whole bankroll. Build your bankroll up slowly, play only when you are very fresh and alert. Good luck and thanks, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, Giocatore, 28. Apr 2003 18:43 | ||
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| Hey 4 Poker. I could not agree with you more on 2 points you made. The first being the importance of discipline. I remember when I began playing seriously i.e. supplementing my income, that whenever I would take a bad beat, or when someone would draw out on me or pull some ridiculous crap, I would get so enraged that I would begin to play more hands, especially those marginal ones, in attempt to regain that lost money. In the end it cost me both financially and emotionally, as the aggrevation from that would linger in my mind for days at a time. I have since learned to discipline myself, and I cannot stress enough the importance of that. It has helped my game tremendously and made me a successful player for the limits I play. I would encourage anyone who plays for a living, planning to play for a living or playing as I do, supplementing their income, to focus on discipline, for if you do so, you will undoubtedly reap the benefits. The second point is that with respect to "proving yourself" at the table. I cannot agree more. There is no need to show off by trying to make fancy plays. The important thing is not to miss a bet, especially when you got a monster, by trying to sucker someone into a check-raise. Of course this particular play might work, but is it worth the missed big bet? My goal at the poker tables is to make money, not to prove myself to my opponents by making fancy plays. Great post, and I'm sure I speak for others when I say that I enjoy reading both your posts and advice. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, 4 POKER, 28. Apr 2003 21:12 | ||
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| on 28. Apr 2003 18:43 Giocatore wrote: > Hey 4 Poker. I could not agree with you more on 2 points you made. The first being the > importance of discipline. I remember when I began playing seriously i.e. supplementing my > income, that whenever I would take a bad beat, or when someone would draw out on me or > pull some ridiculous crap, I would get so enraged that I would begin to play more hands, > especially those marginal ones, in attempt to regain that lost money. In the end it cost > me both financially and emotionally, as the aggrevation from that would linger in my mind > for days at a time. I have since learned to discipline myself, and I cannot stress enough > the importance of that. It has helped my game tremendously and made me a successful > player for the limits I play. I would encourage anyone who plays for a living, planning > to play for a living or playing as I do, supplementing their income, to focus on > discipline, for if you do so, you will undoubtedly reap the benefits. The second point is > that with respect to "proving yourself" at the table. I cannot agree more. There is no > need to show off by trying to make fancy plays. The important thing is not to miss a bet, > especially when you got a monster, by trying to sucker someone into a check-raise. Of > course this particular play might work, but is it worth the missed big bet? My goal at > the poker tables is to make money, not to prove myself to my opponents by making fancy > plays. Great post, and I'm sure I speak for others when I say that I enjoy reading both > your posts and advice. Good luck. Thank you very much. I have also learned a lot myself just from participating in this forum. I wish there were places like this one that I could have come to for help when I was just starting out, but like they say, "You're never too old to learn". Good luck to you as well, Dave | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, spartan51, 29. Apr 2003 08:32 | ||
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| Hi 4 POKER, Thanks for responding and as always your advice is outsanding. I think you are very correct in that discipline is the key element to becoming a successful winning poker player. I also agree that table selection is also key in posting a winning or losing session. This is an area I feel that becomes more difficult for me because I play exclusively online at lower limits, .50/1.00, $1/$2 and $ 25 Pot Limit with .10/.25 blinds. More of these games have many loose players who will call every raise pre-flop with any 2 cards and wiil make any call after the flop with any possible draw, thus making it a game of showdown. On occassion, I am fortunate enough to find the right table where I can control the action, but that is rare. I am a winning player (on average win 2 out of 3 sessions)at these limits, however due to the showdown factor, the luck element is definitely greater. I tried $2/$4 for 10 sessions once my bank roll had gotten to the appropriate size, lost $ 300, and decided to go back to the minors to rebuild. In $2/$4, I had 5 winning sessions and 5 losing sessions. Had I applied some money management to these ten sessions, that is, capping my wins and losses, I could have been playing even at that level. You indicate that you do use some money management techniques, that is never giving back no more than half of a nice win and that you limit your loss in anyone particular game. I know that if had I just taken this action, my bank roll would be much larger today. At the lower limits, I think a money management concept perhaps could be even more valid given the "showdown" element. Last night, for example, I had played for only 75 minutes and found myself up $ 145. Given the limits I play this would have made a very nice win and in hindsight I should have gotten out of Dodge. I continue to play for another 90 minutes giving back $ 70 of what I was up, almost all due to the showdown element. This has occured to me over and over again. I have also been guilty at getting buried in certain games which has done considerable damage to my bankroll. For these reason, I am strongly considering setting limits for myself, on wins and losses, and hope I have the discipline over the next 500 hours to stick to it so I can make a valid assessment if this money management technique works for me. Thanks again for your time and advice. Spartan51 | ||
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| Re: Hey 4 Poker, Please Reply, 4 POKER, 29. Apr 2003 16:39 | ||
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| on 29. Apr 2003 08:32 spartan51 wrote: > Hi 4 POKER, > > Thanks for responding and as always your advice is outsanding. I think you are very correct in that > discipline is the key element to becoming a successful winning poker player. > > I also agree that table selection is also key in posting a winning or losing session. This is an > area I feel that becomes more difficult for me because I play exclusively online at lower limits, > .50/1.00, $1/$2 and $ 25 Pot Limit with .10/.25 blinds. More of these games have many loose players > who will call every raise pre-flop with any 2 cards and wiil make any call after the flop with any > possible draw, thus making it a game of showdown. On occassion, I am fortunate enough to find the > right table where I can control the action, but that is rare. > > I am a winning player (on average win 2 out of 3 sessions)at these limits, however due to the > showdown factor, the luck element is definitely greater. I tried $2/$4 for 10 sessions once my bank > roll had gotten to the appropriate size, lost $ 300, and decided to go back to the minors to > rebuild. In $2/$4, I had 5 winning sessions and 5 losing sessions. Had I applied some money > management to these ten sessions, that is, capping my wins and losses, I could have been playing > even at that level. > > You indicate that you do use some money management techniques, that is never giving back no more > than half of a nice win and that you limit your loss in anyone particular game. I know that if had I > just taken this action, my bank roll would be much larger today. > > At the lower limits, I think a money management concept perhaps could be even more valid given the > "showdown" element. Last night, for example, I had played for only 75 minutes and found myself up $ > 145. Given the limits I play this would have made a very nice win and in hindsight I should have > gotten out of Dodge. I continue to play for another 90 minutes giving back > $ 70 of what I was up, almost all due to the showdown element. This has occured to me over and > over again. I have also been guilty at getting buried in certain games which has done considerable > damage to my bankroll. > > For these reason, I am strongly considering setting limits for myself, on wins and losses, and hope > I have the discipline over the next 500 hours to stick to it so I can make a valid assessment if > this money management technique works for me. > > Thanks again for your time and advice. Spartan51 Hey Spartan51, TRUST me, I have been on the other side as well, losing very large amounts in one session. Reasons being, I took a bad beat and went on tilt, played for way too many hours and lost all sight of what my purpose was in the first place, thought that I could get back my $500 and then lost another $1,000 on top of it. Now, not only do I go home a loser, I go home a big fat loser, I lose out on my quality sleep that is needed for me to be totally focused and prepared for the next day and it's just a destructive pattern of behavior to get in to. Brrr, that gives me chills just thinking about it again. But it has happened to me many, many times in the past because I allowed it to. That is why I advocate the importance of discipline in almost every post i respond to... it's the "Ultimate Tool For Success". 4 POKER > | ||
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