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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:32:06 PM PACIFIC |
 How to play KK?, mkpoker, 27. Apr 2003 18:39 | ||
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| This is one of those, "I think I played this badly--how could I have done better" posts. I'm BB at a 3-6 casino game. I get KK pocket pair. No pre-flop raises, about 5 calls to me. I raise from the blind, knowing it might drive a few people out, but will build the pot. 3 players call. Flop comes 6-A-A. I debate what to do, but bet. 2 players call--no raises. 4th street is a 6 (two pair on the board now). I know I'm beat if any players have an A or 6, but since no one raised on the last round, I'm thinking maybe they've got K-Q, Q-J, or something similar and think can take the pot with the two pair on the board plus a high kicker. Of course, my two pair is higher. I bet on 4th street one player calls, one folds (heads up now). The river is a 10. I bet, my opponent calls, he shows A-8, and I lose. Do you think I should have folded after the flop? Also, if you were my opponent (holding aces full since the turn), would you have raised at some point or just slowplayed, as he did? | ||
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| Re: How to play KK?, steve martino, 27. Apr 2003 19:37 | ||
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| on 27. Apr 2003 18:39 mkpoker wrote: > This is one of those, "I think I played this badly--how could I have done > better" posts. > > I'm BB at a 3-6 casino game. I get KK pocket pair. No pre-flop raises, about > 5 calls to me. I raise from the blind, knowing it might drive a few people out, > but will build the pot. 3 players call. > > Flop comes 6-A-A. I debate what to do, but bet. 2 players call--no raises. > 4th street is a 6 (two pair on the board now). I know I'm beat if any players > have an A or 6, but since no one raised on the last round, I'm thinking maybe > they've got K-Q, Q-J, or something similar and think can take the pot with the > two pair on the board plus a high kicker. Of course, my two pair is higher. > > I bet on 4th street one player calls, one folds (heads up now). The river is a > 10. I bet, my opponent calls, he shows A-8, and I lose. > > Do you think I should have folded after the flop? Also, if you were my > opponent (holding aces full since the turn), would you have raised at some point > or just slowplayed, as he did? > So, you were annoyed because he got you to put in more money than you would've if he played his hand more aggressively. I wouldn't call this slowplaying ,but just calling is the best play here. You raised preflop. If you had an Ace,you would have a better kicker,and re-raise,if you don't, you would likely fold. So raising would lose more when your beat and win nothing extra when you have the best hand. His only mistake may have been seeing the flop in the first place(depending on the game/position/suited )., Steve | ||
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| Re: How to play KK?, Big_Slick, 27. Apr 2003 19:50 | ||
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| There are a lot of other factors you need to take into consideration. The 2 callers... were they tight or loose players? Bluffers or only bet when they have the best of it? Since this is a 3/6 game, have these players been playing all the way to river with garbage or have they been playing only good cards? If you were unsure what to do, you probably should have checked. By checking, the A,8 would have surely bet. This would have given you free information about this player. Free information is always a good thing at the poker table when you're unsure about a situation. "I know I'm beat if any players have an A or 6... but no one raised". Your opponent knew that he was a huge favorite. He knew that if he did raise, you would have folded. He was content to sit snuggly with his 3 aces and take you all the way to the river. This was a tough hand to play. I know for a fact that if I was in a bigger game (say 10/20) I would have folded that hand in a heart beat given the same situation. The problem with the low-limit games is that the players are often unpredictable. This is where a great player will read the cards and the players. If you were unsure and couldn't read the player to your satisfaction, you probably should have folded. It takes takes a lot of discipline to fold pocket k's but a good player learns to choose his battles wisely. Let me know what you think. | ||
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| Re: How to play KK?, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 22:17 | ||
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| Believe it or not, when there are 2 Aces on the flop, the odds go down for someone to be holding an Ace. And the odds go down even more if there were 3 Aces on the flop. I know that's obvious, I'm just clarifying the whole situation here. Having said that, when you bet the flop and get called, your opponents have one of three hands (unless they're complete maniacs). Either someone has an Ace, or a six, or a pocket pair. In which 2 out of 3 you can beat. I really don't think a player would call a bet on the flop with any other holding, not KQ, or any high cards because with two Aces on the flop they would be too afraid to even draw to hitting their pair on the turn. You tested the waters on the flop by betting, that's fine, but once the turn card brought another six, now there are two hands that can beat you instead of one. You're really not the favorite here, not that you were on the flop either but a lot of aggresive players will try and bet the flop trying to represent an Ace if it is checked to them. So your flop bet was not as bad as you may think; you did raise out of your blind, which almost always represents a strong holding... However, given the situation at hand, because you raised in that position, once you bet the flop and got CALLED, you can be about 85% sure if not more that you are beat. A fold on the turn was definitely in order here, because even if you hit your K on the river, that still wouldn't beat Aces full. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: How to play KK?, Snorbolus, 28. Apr 2003 06:20 | ||
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| 4 POKER, I am pretty sure this is what you were saying but it is worth making is absolutly clear. "When there are 2 aces on the flop the odds go down for someone to be holding an ace" BUT when there are 2 aces on the flop and someone calls your bet, the odds that she has an ace go way up. When another player also calls, the odds that at least one of them have an ace go through the roof. Sklanskey writes about no raise pre-flop indicating that an ace is less likely to be out there; because many players will either raise of fold a hand with an ace pre-flop. BUT if you are going to consider this be sure that it is true at your table. I play in the low limits where this is certainly not true. There are many, any ace, type players in the games that I play. Get to know who these players are. If they are still in the hand and call then your kings are in even worse shape. Often I don't even bother to bet my kings into this kind of a field with an ace on board. Snorbolus on 27. Apr 2003 22:17 4 POKER wrote: > Believe it or not, when there are 2 Aces on the flop, the odds go down for someone to > be holding an Ace. And the odds go down even more if there were 3 Aces on the flop. I > know that's obvious, I'm just clarifying the whole situation here. > Having said that, when you bet the flop and get called.......... | ||
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| Re: How to play KK?, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 10:59 | ||
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| Once that second 6 hits the board you have to figure yourself as probably dead and drawing to maybe 4 outs. Another ace hits the board you're probably good and a king hits you are golden. Other than that, it looks grim. So maybe you can call a bet, but you can't bet out. | ||
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| Re: How to play KK?, SendMoney, 28. Apr 2003 12:34 | ||
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| Your KK may have driven A8 out of the pot if you had raised before him pre-flop, but the fact that he had already invested $3 made it easier for him to invest another $3 even if it is usually a losing proposition with a weak ace. Regardless raising with KK before the flop was the proper play. Your bet on the flop was probably also the proper play, hoping to win the pot right there since it was checked to you. After he called your bet on the flop you probably had to figure him for an ace, if he has it he's not going anywhere. When the 6 fell on the turn he would only be beaten by pocket 6s for quads, so even if he was scared of you having a hand like AK the turn made it irrelevant. You should have checked the turn and allowed him to bet out on the river at which point you should probably fold. If you followed this game plan you would have lost one big bet pre-flop, and one small bet on the flop for $9. Instead you lost $21 and after the turn you were drawing completely dead on the river, the turn card wasn't much better, drawing to a 2-outter. At low limit people play weak aces, it's as simple as that. When you have KK and the flop contains at A with several players, try to steal it right there hoping no one has an ace or that you can fold an ace with a weak kicker (unlikely) and if they don't go for it hope to catch a K on the turn and if that fails minimize your losses. | ||
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| Re: How to play KK?, mkpoker, 28. Apr 2003 12:50 | ||
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| Playing this hand, I think I made a classic beginner error--holding on to a "great" hand too long, when all indications were that I was beat. When you get dealt a pocket pair like KK, you can't help but say to yourself, "Whoopi! I'm going to win this hand!" Then, you just get so locked it, it's tough to let go. Most of the books I've read suggest that folding great hands, like AA and KK are among the toughest plays in hold 'em. I believe it. | ||
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| Re: How to play KK?, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 13:21 | ||
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| Yup, but if you are unable to get away from AA or KK when you are beat, you'll never be a long term winner. I very often see somebody hanging onto AA, KK, or QQ long after they are decimated, paying off bet after bet, and I think that the only reason they do it is to show everybody at the end of the hand and let them know that they were in the lead preflop. | ||
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