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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:19:29 PM PACIFIC |
 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, jake-free, 27. Apr 2003 07:45 | ||
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| multi-way action favorite Ace with two wheel cards: A-2-3 A-2-4 A-2-5 A-3-4 A-3-5 A-4-5 Three small cards(2 to 6) 2-3-4 2-3-5 2-3-6 2-4-5 2-4-6 2-5-6 3-4-5 3-4-6 3-5-6 4-5-6 Heads-up action favorite Ace-wheel cards-7 A-2-7 A-3-7 A-4-7 A-5-7 A-A-small cards(2 to 8) A-A-2 A-A-3 A-A-4 A-A-5 A-A-6 A-A-7 A-A-8 Heads-up and multi-way action(no preference) 3 card sixes +Ace A-2-6 A-3-6 A-4-6 A-5-6 3 cards sevens with a strong straight draw or a flush draw 3-4-7 3-5-7 3-6-7 4-5-7 4-6-7 5-6-7 3 cards eights suited (4-5-8)s (4-6-8)s (4-7-8)s (5-6-8)s (5-7-8)s (6-7-8)s Trips A-A-A 7-7-7 8-8-8 Many of the above hands will be stroger when they are suited. There are more playable hands not covered here. Please comment thanks jake | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 15:32 | ||
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| Wow ! That's a lot of starting hands. I see you did your homework, good job. When I'm playing in a heads up hand and the other player has an obvious, or what seems to be, high hand, two of my favorite low hands to draw to are either an Ace with two wheel cards,one of those cards being a 5, or a hand like 5 6 7, or 6 7 8. The first one because if your opponent has a high pair and you start with three low cards one being an Ace, you can back into a higher pair if you hit the ace and can scoop the whole pot. Having the 5 enables you to make a straight, and in my opinion a low hand that doesn't start with a 5 or at least catch one by 5th street is a hand that is going to have more difficulties in scooping. The second hand, 5 6 7 is not a terrific low starting hand if there is too many players involved but if you play this hand out against one opponent who is playing a high hand, it may actually play even better then three lower cards that can make a wheel. Only because you can hit any low card from the Ace to the eight to complete the low side of your hand, but now you can even hit a 9 as well to make a higher straight; and it's always good to have more outs in the hand especially when you're heads up against a high pair. 6 7 8 is the most deceptive low drawing hand there is, because you have eight more outs to complete your hand, four 9's and four 10's- completing a straight, 6 7 8 9 10; and when you hit either one of these cards (9 or 10), *your opponent will think that you've bricked on your low draw so your hand will be more disguised now*. (*Unless your opponent is an astute hi-lo player). You can catch cards from the Ace all the way to the 10 to make and or complete your hand, high and low. I would like to know if you play high low stud, and how you play your high hands. What high hands do you play and why and which ones don't you play and why? Thanks, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, jake-free, 28. Apr 2003 05:47 | ||
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| on 27. Apr 2003 15:32 4 POKER wrote: > Wow ! That's a lot of starting hands. > I see you did your homework, good job. > > When I'm playing in a heads up hand and the other player has an obvious, or what > seems to be, high hand, two of my favorite low hands to draw to are either an Ace > with two wheel cards,one of those cards being a 5, or a hand like 5 6 7, or 6 7 8. > The first one because if your opponent has a high pair and you start with three low > cards one being an Ace, you can back into a higher pair if you hit the ace and can > scoop the whole pot. Having the 5 enables you to make a straight, and in my opinion a > low hand that doesn't start with a 5 or at least catch one by 5th street is a hand > that is going to have more difficulties in scooping. > The second hand, 5 6 7 is not a terrific low starting hand if there is too many > players involved but if you play this hand out against one opponent who is playing a > high hand, it may actually play even better then three lower cards that can make a > wheel. Only because you can hit any low card from the Ace to the eight to complete > the low side of your hand, but now you can even hit a 9 as well to make a higher > straight; and it's always good to have more outs in the hand especially when you're > heads up against a high pair. > 6 7 8 is the most deceptive low drawing hand there is, because you have eight more > outs to complete your hand, four 9's and four 10's- completing a straight, 6 7 8 9 > 10; and when you hit either one of these cards (9 or 10), *your opponent will think > that you've bricked on your low draw so your hand will be more disguised now*. > (*Unless your opponent is an astute hi-lo player). You can catch cards from the Ace > all the way to the 10 to make and or complete your hand, high and low. > > I would like to know if you play high low stud, and how you play your high hands. > What high hands do you play and why and which ones don't you play and why? > Thanks, > > 4 POKER I'll try to answer,but first to tell you what is my goal.I like to come up with a list of ranked hands.phase one three groups:1)Multi-way 2)Heads-up 3)No preference.Phase two is to rank the hands in each group,for exaple: A-2-4 vs A-4-5 or 2-3-5 vs 3-5-6 etc,etc. Im looking to find a simulation for 7stud 8. A percentage of pots won with 7stud 8 hands ranked by value for 1to 7 opponents.Similar to the sim for holdem at: www.gocee.com/HE_VaL_Sort.htm A player who insist on starting out with a High hand must lose in the long run. Trips -Face cards I'll play fast.With Aces and all others I'll just call until fifth street,then play fast 3 Low to a flush(2d-5d-7d),or similar hands,check-fold on the next card if you don't improve your straight or flush draws,and facing two or more better low hand draws. 3 Low with an Ace-(A-5-6).Check-fold on the next card if you don't pair the Ace and are facing two or more better low draws. Low Pair with an Ace-(A-77),Check-fold on the next card if I don't get trips or pair the Ace and I'm facing two or more better low draws High pair/.(AA,KK,QQ,JJ). I'll play fast,split or concealed,if they are not overcarded on the board.Continue fast until threatned by another high hand and don't have a good shot at a no-low scoop.I'll try to drive the weak low hands and high draw hands out. -(A-T-T) and (A-9-9)--I'll Check-fold If I don't get trips or Aces-over on the next card more to come,I didn, read all post here later thanks | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, flintsword, 27. Apr 2003 18:58 | ||
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| Boy, acres of possible hands to look at. I play Hi-Lo infrequently, so any analysis would attract lighting from the players that know what they are doing. I will read what they have to say with great care though. I take it these are your premium starting hands for making the low and some upside for a str8 to scoop both Hi and Lo. Looking at your "multiway" three-card hands, I agree with most except 2-3-6, 2-4-6, 2-5-6, 3-4-6, & 3-5-6, which are off my list, though curiously 4-5-6 I have had good results with in multiway action. To have a good, strong shot at low, 5 and under. Looking at your "Heads Up" three-card hands, I have A-2-6 added to it, as well as "all" AA (all), KK (all), QQ (all), JJ (all), TT (all), on the principle that a big pair in the hole is something I can handle in case your opponent cannot make a low hand. Looking at your "Both Multiway & Heads Up" three-card hands, I have the suited varieties of what you listed for multiway and Heads Up but exclude (4-6-8) suited & (3-5-7) suited. All trips make the grade here. Hope this is illuminating. For my high hands, I keep connected suited for all three cards (eg) A-K-Q. The Connected, suited in the hole, with a single gap to the showing card (eg) Kd Qd Th as my marginal holding, with the rest inbetween being ok to play. Ok, ok, these high hands are pretty loose, but the point of all this work is to get the pros that "really know" make critical comment so we can make some progress as players. Critical comment appreciated. flintsword | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 19:31 | ||
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| on 27. Apr 2003 18:58 flintsword wrote: > Boy, acres of possible hands to look at. I play Hi-Lo infrequently, so any analysis > would attract lighting from the players that know what they are doing. I will read > what they have to say with great care though. > > I take it these are your premium starting hands for making the low and some upside > for a str8 to scoop both Hi and Lo. > > Looking at your "multiway" three-card hands, I agree with most except 2-3-6, 2-4-6, > 2-5-6, 3-4-6, & 3-5-6, which are off my list, though curiously 4-5-6 I have had good > results with in multiway action. To have a good, strong shot at low, 5 and under. > > Looking at your "Heads Up" three-card hands, I have A-2-6 added to it, as well as > "all" AA (all), KK (all), QQ (all), JJ (all), TT (all), on the principle that a big > pair in the hole is something I can handle in case your opponent cannot make a low > hand. > > Looking at your "Both Multiway & Heads Up" three-card hands, I have the suited > varieties of what you listed for multiway and Heads Up but exclude (4-6-8) suited & > (3-5-7) suited. All trips make the grade here. > > Hope this is illuminating. For my high hands, I keep connected suited for all three > cards (eg) A-K-Q. The Connected, suited in the hole, with a single gap to the showing > card (eg) Kd Qd Th as my marginal holding, with the rest inbetween being ok to > play. > > Ok, ok, these high hands are pretty loose, but the point of all this work is to get > the pros that "really know" make critical comment so we can make some progress as > players. Critical comment appreciated. You're really testing me now, flintsword... (laugh, laugh) to be continued!!! 4 POKER > > flintsword | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 20:32 | ||
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| Okay, I give in. here goes... First we'll start with the low hands. In heads up play or with several callers, 3 5 7 suited is a pretty strong starting hand. The key to stud 8 is to not continue drawing to the hand if you catch a bad card (which is called a "brick"), on 4th street. That is because, if one other player is drawing to the low as well, if you catch bad and he catches a good small card, you will now have to catch two perfect low cards to complete your hand where he only has to catch one. And by that time the betting rounds will be bigger- and if someone already completed their low hand and you are still drawing to it, they will make you pay dearly to hit it. Example: three way action, one player with a high hand,KK, and you and another player both drawing for low. In this example the high hand won't play that much of a part in this scenerio, I'm focusing on the two low draws, ok? Now, the KK catches X and your opponent catches a small card. You catch a brick,(high card). You decide to take a card off to try and hit a vavorable low card on 5th street. Now 5th street comes and your opponent catches what looks like to be a completed low hand, Ex.his board reads, 4 5 7. The KK catches an open pair. You now catch a good small card, the Ace, which seems to go nicely with your 3 5 7, right? Wrong! For if this opponent plays the game correctly, if he has made his low by 5th street he will bet his hand and if the KK bets out first, he will definitely raise and re-raise every chance he gets just to make sure that you will be putting in MAX bets to try and beat him. That is where a lot of the money is made in this game- 2 players chop up the other guy's money and split the pot on the river. That is why it is so important to not continue with your low starting hands once you catch a bad card on 4th street. There are exceptions to this rule, however, I'd rather not get in to that here because it's a habit that I wouldn't want someone to get into. The money that you have to invest alone just to try and hit your low hand will not be worth it in the long run. Your high hand requirements are absolutely not fit for stud eight or better. A K J is not a playable hand in this game, neither is 10, Q K. they may look pretty but they will be overall money losers in this game. And keep in mind that even your high pairs have to be played with extreme caution, because if you're up against several players who are drawing to the low side of the pot, once they make their low, the betting war will begin- one player will try to raise to knock out the other possible low draw and once they make their low, they can easily back into a high hand as well like a low straight or trips- and you will be sitting there with your big pair calling all bets only to lose to a player who was on a total freeroll against you. ( a freeroll is: when a player completes his low hand, he can't lose the pot because he's up against an opponent who has a high pair, and now he has a chance to make a straight, flush or two pair against you to take the whole pot. It simply means that he can not lose the hand... but you can. Yes, you can play high pairs in this game but you must be able to release them quickly, especially if your opponent catches an Ace. The Ace is a very scarey card in this game and if you haven't improved to at least two pair, you'd be better off throwing your high pair away. But like I posted earlier, if you plan on playing this game and would like to show a good profit from it, you should really just stick to playing the strong low draws, for it's those hands that make the most money, because they can make a low hand and complete a high hand as well. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, Andrew Wells, 27. Apr 2003 21:03 | ||
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| Even two big pair on fourth should only be played if you have a real feel for this game. You're usually better off if you catch a live three flush to go with the big pair (which isn't anything to be proud of either). To continue with two pair you really need all the probable lows to miss on fourth street. Maybe you can get by with just one of them helping. There's just no stopping the lows and their backdoor straight draws, and you are locked into maximum half the pot (except for some freak hands where no one makes their low). Two pair needs to isolate on fourth street to have the best chance against an unmade low, but that's often difficult to achieve. Usually the best result is to scoop a small pot early. I'm sure you know when to get away from two pair 4 POKER, but this is a money loser for players new to the game. | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 21:44 | ||
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| The message that I posted was to not play high hands but rather stick to the very strong low drawing hands if you expect to be an overall money winner in this game. ( I think you misunderstood my post). I was trying to explain to flintsword that his high hand starting requirements were not fit for this game and that even high pairs had to be played with extreme caution. I am pleased that you took the time to respond to this post- and yes, if you are a beginner in stud 8 you should not try to get involved with any high pairs. However, if you are an advanced stud 8 player and are playing in the higher limit games then high pairs will play much differently because of the high ante and bring in bet making these hands stronger then if they were played in the lower limits. I am presently playing a lot of omaha 8 and stud 8, and have been for several years now. I play stud 8 only in the live poker rooms and even though the limit I play in is on the higher side, I still try to stick to only getting involved with the premium low starting hands. After keeping records of which hands were money makers and which ones were costly, the high hands were definitely on the list as overall money losers, at least for me they were. I hope I clarified things better for you, Andrew. Good luck, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, Andrew Wells, 27. Apr 2003 22:30 | ||
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| I thought your post was excellent. You happened to mention that one should throw their big pair away if someone catches an ace and they don't at least improve to two pairs. I just thought it should be explained that two pair isn't usually enough either, seeing that this thread was for those new to the game. | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 22:48 | ||
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| on 27. Apr 2003 22:30 Andrew Wells wrote: > I thought your post was excellent. You happened to mention that one should throw their big pair away if > someone catches an ace and they don't at least improve to two pairs. I just thought it should be > clarified that two pair isn't usually enough either, seeing that this thread was for those new to the > game. Yes, for the most part I agree with that as well, but there are situations where two high pair will be playable, but for you to not concern yourself with even playing the high pairs, is a great way to start this game. It takes so much discipline to throw away high pairs, because normally they look pretty good! But I totally agree with your views as well, I hate high pairs. They're a big fat trap! It sounds to me that you have a decent understanding to this game. I hope you play it and discover all the fun and advantages you can have just by being a little bit better then your opponent. It's a very frustrating game at times,(2,3,4,5, brick, brick, brick), but when a player is knoweldgable in this game, he can really clean up! And thanks for the nice response, I appreciate it. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, Andrew Wells, 27. Apr 2003 22:56 | ||
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| I've played it a great deal many years ago in home games. Occasionally I will play it in a casino, but it is usually spread limit. I am fond of the game since two of my all time favorite hands were from this game. A steel wheel on the river to scoop against four aces (community card), and having four aces cracked by a queen high straight flush for the big end of a sweet jackpot. | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 23:35 | ||
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| on 27. Apr 2003 22:56 Andrew Wells wrote: > I've played it a great deal many years ago in home games. Occasionally I will play it in a casino, but it is > usually spread limit. I am fond of the game since two of my all time favorite hands were from this game. A steel > wheel on the river to scoop against four aces (community card), and having four aces cracked by a queen high > straight flush for the big end of a sweet jackpot. Wow, very nice! What casino were you playing in? I'd love it if we had a bad beat jackpot for this game. | ||
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| Re: 7 Card Stud Hi Lo 8 hands, Andrew Wells, 28. Apr 2003 00:36 | ||
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| That $13,093.00 bad beat jackpot was at Cities of Gold in Pojoaque New Mexico. This is a very interesting little card room in a Pueblo Indian casino near Santa Fe, with some unusual promotions. Each time I've been there something magical has happened. I highly recommend it for low limit players passing through the area. The stud-8 has a mini-beat that I've never heard of elsewhere. Get a six smooth beaten by a wheel and they pay you $175 (the player with the wheel gets $75). Any quads in any game is an automatic $20 extra, straight-flush is an automatic $30, and a royal is $50 and a nice jacket. First table of the weekdays (they start at 11:00 am) all non-prop players get an extra $15 on their buy-in, ($10 if hold'em) two hour minimum play. All games have separate jackpots ($1 at $20). I hadn't been there for about two years but as soon as I walked in the door the floor manager said "How are you doing Andy?" Amazing that they even remember players from out of town that well. Played the strangest NL hold'em tourney ever there. I never held a pocket pair, and never had the chip lead until the final hand! They call it The Land of Enchantment, and it is. | ||
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