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Server Time: 12/2/2008 7:15:26 PM PACIFIC |
 Muck top pair, RamDannyboy, 26. Apr 2003 21:09 | ||
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| Typical low-limit table. I'm in the BB with 9c 5c. MP1 open limps. MP2 call and LP1 raises. Fold round to me and I call. MP1 and MP2 call. 4 handed. Flop: 9h 6s 4c I check. MP1 check. MP2 bet. LP1 raise. I fold..... What do you think? As always, thanks for your comments. | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, Schuster, 26. Apr 2003 21:34 | ||
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| Hmmm... Given that LP raised preflop, he's not very likely to have a 9, so it's either overcards and he's trying to get a free river card if nothing hits, or he has a high pocket pair. I'm not sure I see why you called the preflop raise with such a weak hand, but I am very tight about my defending my blinds. I think I would have bet the flop to see where I stood. If MP raises, or even calls, you're probably beaten, and you have to check/fold the turn unless you pick up something. If MP folds and LP raises, you can bet into him on the turn again provided your 9 is still high pair. I think that with the situation you put yourself in, you have to raise or fold on the flop to find out if your 9 is good. I've seen a lot of low limit players bet draws or second pair into a late position raiser in this situation. Checking and then raising costs you three bets, betting out on the flop costs you one, and gives you a better idea of where you stand. Maybe I'm way off, but that's how I would have played it. I'd be interested to hear how it turned out! Lee | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 03:18 | ||
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| It sounded to me that this was not the flop you were hoping for and decided that you were willing to check and fold your hand if there was too much betting on the flop. Is that correct? If so, I think your check was the right play. Leading at the flop to find out where you stand would be another option if you truly felt you held the best hand, but I'm not sure if you bet the flop that you would call a raise from one of the players behind you. I don't think you would have given the information on how you handled the flop. That is ok, too if what you were hoping to flop was something better then top pair. Maybe you were looking to flop a straight or a flush; that is why these types of holdings that are played out of position can be very difficult to play. You almost always have to hit this hand twice to even continue. It's a pretty week starting hand but at least you got away from it cheaply. The way the hand played out on the flop it sounds to me that when the original limper bet, he probaly held a nine with a better kicker then yours, because I don't think he would have bet the flop after it had already been raised by a different player pre-flop. The board was rather raggidy with no present flush draw, so the only hand I could give him would be a pair of nines or an overpair, maybe 10-10. Now when the LP raises, that says either an overpair or overcards,AK, or AQ. (depending on what type of player put in the pre-flop raise). If this player was overly aggresive then he could very well have just overcards. But if he was a tight player then I would definitely have to give him an overpair here. I'm curious as well to finding out what hand took the pot down. thanks, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, chasepoker, 27. Apr 2003 07:00 | ||
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| Okay the more i read the more i think i might be playing too tight. Does the 9c 5c warrant a call pre flop in the BB ? How much do you need to " defend the blind " is it not just a function of the game rather than something that is yours to defend ( i know it is a different situation when someone might be on a steal raise ie cutoff, button) When i first started playing i use to defend the blind left right and centre but i now think of calling a raise in the blind as putting more money into a pot where i have a) bad postion b) an ' average' hand and c) up against most likely a ' better than average ' hand. Love to hear what you all think ! 7 High's Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, Snorbolus, 27. Apr 2003 16:03 | ||
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| I wouldn't have called the raise with 95s here either. There were already 2 MP limpers so LP wasn't trying to steal. Even if these players were all really bad I think that 95s has to be in bad shape. To be honest, unless I really thought that LP was trying to steal from me at every opportunity, I don't think that I would have called a raise, even without the MP limpers. However, I might play too tight also. Very interested to see what others think about this. Snorbolus on 27. Apr 2003 07:00 chasepoker wrote: > Okay the more i read the more i think i might be playing too tight. > > Does the 9c 5c warrant a call pre flop in the BB ? | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, flintsword, 27. Apr 2003 10:50 | ||
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| I'm in the BB with 9c 5c. MP1 open limps. MP2 call and LP1 raises. Fold round to me and I call. MP1 and MP2 call. 4 handed. Flop: 9h 6s 4c I check. MP1 check. MP2 bet. LP1 raise. I fold..... Remembering that this is LL, the MP players could have anything since there is a lot of "two-of-a-suit, I call" LL recreational players in LL, so suited connectors fall in this category. Also, small pairs in MP could be called. The raise by the LP player is probably a medium to high pair, or high overcards would be a good guess. After the flop, MP1 checks (so he has nothing or is preparing to checkraise his 96 suited, this hand being unlikely), but MP2 bets out. I would suspect a nine with a higher kicker or he has 87 suited and is value betting his draw. LP1 raises so in effect he is declaring better than a pair of nines (we will ignore the complete bluff here) and if LP1 is a good player, then the possibility of 87 suited occurred to him and it could also be a runner runner flush draw if the suit of the 87 was h, s, or c. This looks like LP1 has a set but raising preflop with 44, 66 doesn't make much sense. So it is either a big pair or 99. Defending your blinds is a really hot topic right now and I have been looking at it. Whether 95 suited is the right hand to do it with "card-wise" is a matter of debate. Andrew Wells answered with a piece of practical advice that has proven so useful, that I include it below. Thanks Andrew, I used it and it works, in spades. If you want to check out the entire Thread, it is entitled "Blind Stealer". Andrew Wells: "It is okay to try and send a message by reraising out of your big blind, and I would certainly have done this with your QQ. The problem is with premium hands that it doesn't usually send the message "don't mess with my big blind", because you are expected to three bet such a hand. What you have to do is also call more often when it is heads-up or when the small blind has also called. Play a hand like medium one-gap or suited cards. You're not playing these for their draw potential, although such a fortunate accident is also possible. You're looking to catch a pair without the other two cards being ten or higher, even bottom pair. Now you bet into him on the flop, and he raises. Call if you can pick up a backdoor flush or openended straight draw on the turn along with your ordinary five outs. Call if the board has two suited cards that can't help you. Fire again on the turn if a blank or the third suited card hits, and sometimes checkraise if you improve to two pairs or trips. If you get raised again and still have just one pair, simply pick up your cards and look at them so that the players next to you can see what they are, and muck. The psychology of the outright stealer is such that he will want to know what you had; so noticing that you gave information to the other players, he will often make the dealer show the hand. Now that sends a real message because you are seen to defend your blind with trash. It's the trash card players that he doesn't want to be outright stealing against, and when he see's that 75o he'll go back to just normal semisteals with hands of appropriate value. If he doesn't ask to see your cards the first time you do this and have to fold, the next time you have to muck just throw them face up." I hope this helps. .................... flintsword | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, Andrew Wells, 27. Apr 2003 13:00 | ||
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| This is really not a defend to a steal situation since you have more players. However I would bet out with top pair here from the blind because you got what you were looking for when you called the raise. The main problem in this hand is that you don't have isolation, and to play trash cards you always need to have the possibility of getting your opponent to fold. You need to read someone for big cards and semibluff a lot with the small cards. Here there are three opponents, so maybe you can manage to get the players in the middle to let go of overcards (but this is doubtful in low limit) since they have to consider the possibility that there will be a raise, and that the blind may have a strong hand. If you're going to take one off trying to pick up enough outs to have pot odds from the turn to river, then don't check at the flop. Certainly don't call two bets cold when you give yourself no chance to get heads-up with the aggressor. | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, flintsword, 27. Apr 2003 15:59 | ||
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| You are right, this is not a defend your blind situation, though the holding was pretty marginal, so I imagine some one defending their blind with non-ideal cards (ideal cards as you pointed out being connected or single gap small cards). I have had your defend post in mind for the past little while and it turned out to be of such great practical value that I tend to colour my BB thinking in terms of defending it. | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, Andrew Wells, 27. Apr 2003 17:25 | ||
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| Be careful about defending. The original example was intended to show what to do about a habitual stealer, and it was 5-10 limit. These sort of plays don't work as well at the lowest limits where more players are also going to be involved with trash cards. The important thing is you need isolation or the whole field to come in for your drawing odds. Isolation is better since one pair is the most common way to hit the trash hands. | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, flintsword, 27. Apr 2003 19:28 | ||
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| Thanks for caveats. I tend to get enthusiastic when something works and will add your points to the original idea in my notebook. | ||
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| Re: Result, RamDannyboy, 27. Apr 2003 15:18 | ||
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| The outcome was MP2 check called LP1 all the way. MP2 took the pot with K9o (pair) and LP1 had AQo. Thanks for the feedback. | ||
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| Re: Result, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 15:37 | ||
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| on 27. Apr 2003 15:18 RamDannyboy wrote: > The outcome was MP2 check called LP1 all the way. > > MP2 took the pot with K9o (pair) and LP1 had AQo. > > Thanks for the feedback. Thanks for finishing the hand! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Result, flintsword, 27. Apr 2003 16:02 | ||
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| Thanks for a good example. | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 10:55 | ||
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| How could you do anything but? You've got a small top pair with no kicker and you've got two bets coming at you. You don't have pot odds to draw to something better - get the damn hell away from the hand. | ||
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| Re: Muck top pair, Risky Business, 29. Apr 2003 10:33 | ||
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| ....dump it preflop Here is where it might have been good to have your Post It on the monitor and ask yourself, what would I need to have under here to call a raise from the middle position with very few players to pay me off if I do have something worth calling. on 28. Apr 2003 10:55 stdioh wrote: > How could you do anything but? You've got a small top pair with no kicker and you've > got two bets coming at you. You don't have pot odds to draw to something better - get > the damn hell away from the hand. | ||
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