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Server Time: 12/2/2008 7:13:45 PM PACIFIC |
 middle limit holdem game, jake-free, 26. Apr 2003 06:36 | ||
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| I'm in BB with Ac-Qc. Six players limp in.I raise.Everyone calls.Flop came...Kd-8c-3s. We all checked. Turn was...8s. I bet, Only the Cutoff called. River ...2s. He bet and I called. i lost to his Ad-8d. 1)should I bet the flop? 2)should I' check preflop? | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, flintsword, 26. Apr 2003 07:51 | ||
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| WHen you bet, you are announcing a big hand. When the flop hit, the only person who knew that you had not hit or still had a big pair ... was you. When you checked, you in essense said to everyone at the table "Hey guys, I have nothing", and the guy that lucked out with a pair of eights started getting hopeful. Bet out. The idea is to get the better hand (in this case the eights) to fold. Am I right here?? | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, jake-free, 26. Apr 2003 12:22 | ||
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| I agree "bet", i like to be aggressive more than passive it works for me most of the time. thanks | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, Giocatore, 26. Apr 2003 07:57 | ||
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| If there were already 6 limpers and you raised in the big blind, knowing that all 6 limpers are going to call your raise, what that would tell me is that you're very strong (AA, KK, AK or maybe even QQ). Personally I would have just checked in your spot, but since you raised and essentially told the table that you were strong, you would have to bet the flop in that spot. If someone raised or if there was a caller or two, then I would have checked the turn and folded to any bet taking into consideration that the other players merely limped, meaning they could be holding medium suited connectors or possibly a medium wired pair, giving them trips. If I were the one holding A8 and observed you check both the flop and turn, I would have mucked in his spot for fear that you had something good and attempted to trap, also taking into consideration that you had no qualms about raising your big blind. But then again, it's online poker meaning that people are significantly more likely to call due to the "cyber chip phenomenon," which to me makes bluffing online much more difficult than in a live game. Keep that in mind if you're thinking about bluffing in the future, especially online. Better luck next time. | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, jake-free, 26. Apr 2003 12:28 | ||
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| hi Giocatore thanks for your reply,really learned a lot. can you please clarify what is the "cyber chip phenomenon" thanks jake freedman | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, chasepoker, 26. Apr 2003 17:02 | ||
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| Am i too tight or does anyone agree with the check before the flop, check after the flop and then fold to any bet here ? Did everyone think that 1) betting pre-flop is a good move and 2) that AQs has any chance against 6 people when hitting nothing on the flop ? Also that call on the end with A high to me is far from fantastic ,does no-one else think this ? I know i am newish to the game but to me AQs from the BB with 6 callers already aint that great. Could someone please explain if i am incorrect here as i may be missing out on a very important point otherwise. 7 High's Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, 4 POKER, 26. Apr 2003 17:37 | ||
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| I think that you can definitely chose to raise with AQ suited even if your out of position . But I would be making that raise as a value raise in case I flop something really good. I don't mind getting all that extra money in the pot pre-flop. However, I wouldn't go nuts with the hand if I flopped absolutely nothing either.There were six players taking the flop, a King was present, the AQ had no pair, no draw and at best a runner runner flush draw or an Ace. If he felt the need to try and represent a big hand he should have at least bet the flop and prayed that everyone would go out. But what purpose does it serve to check the flop and then lead at it on the turn when the board pairs? Once someone calls your bet on the turn you can almost be sure that they have you beat or they picked up a flush draw. Keep in mind the runner runner flush DID hit on the river so he either had a pair on the flop or at the very worst, made his flush now. Both in which AQ can not beat. This IMO, was not the case where Ace high was gonna take down the pot. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with putting in a raise for value, but if you're not willing to throw your hand away when you don't flop anything just because you were the original raiser then you better re-think this situation over. You must be able to understand WHY you are raising and have the discipline and the common sense now to not invest any more of your money... your GOOD MONEY that is. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, 4 POKER, 26. Apr 2003 19:57 | ||
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| on 26. Apr 2003 17:02 chasepoker wrote: > Am i too tight or does anyone agree with the check before the flop, check after the > flop and then fold to any bet here ? > > Did everyone think that 1) betting pre-flop is a good move and 2) that AQs has any > chance against 6 people when hitting nothing on the flop ? Also that call on the end > with A high to me is far from fantastic ,does no-one else think this ? > > I know i am newish to the game but to me AQs from the BB with 6 callers already aint > that great. > > Could someone please explain if i am incorrect here as i may be missing out on a > very important point otherwise. > > 7 High's > Chasepoker Hi chase, I really don't think it's a matter of whether he should have checked his hand pre-flop or not, but how he played it from the flop on. I think he put in a raise because he felt he had a pretty strong holding, and he did, but I think he got lost somewhere during the hand and wound up paying this player off with Ace high. I seriously think that if a player, especially one who is just learning, can not think clearly and make level-headed decisions because of the previous action of strength that he has shown, that he might just be better off to check the hand coming in - this way if he doesn't flop anything, he can just quietly fold his hand and not even think about how he might be able to steal the pot- or for that matter, have to think to himself, " do I have to bet now 'cause I raised it pre-flop?" And that is what I mean by getting lost in the hand. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, Piers Majestyk, 26. Apr 2003 23:21 | ||
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| In my opinion you should just check before the flop. You have six others in the pot already and you are not going to get away with the pot without hitting something pretty good. If you do hit top pair then you can check raise to drive some of the others out with your probable best hand and if you totally miss you fold the flop and it cost you only the BB. I may be too tight but in that situation if I raise you can put me on one of two hands. After the flop you played it pretty badly. You announced strength and then checked. That's the problem with your preflop raise, you have to hit because you ain't going to drive A high through 6 other players. I think your turn bet was a waste of one big bet and your river pay off another. Save that AQs raise for a better position. Good luck and save those wasted bets for a more positive situation. | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 16:15 | ||
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| I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with his play pre-flop. You can raise AQ suited out of the big blind as a value raise. Even if there's several players in the hand already- that is where the value raise makes its most profit, when there is already a lot of limpers in before you. You are trying to get a lot of volume on the hand with dead money in the pot if you happen to make the nuts,(and that can very easily be done with AQ suited). But you NEED to know that this is why you're raising, for VALUE purposes only, IF you hit good. It does not mean that you are supposed to go crazy on the flop and check and raise with absolutely no hand... then the purpose of the value raise goes right out the window. You must first understand the meaning of a value bet before you make one. He did get carried away with his checking and then betting, i definitely will agree to that, but that was his post flop play and had nothing to do with his pre-flop raise. The two do not go hand in hand unless you are uncertain as to why you raised it in the first place. If a player is not comfortable with making a raise for value then yes, he is much better off checking the hand in the BB, and just see what happens on the flop. In his case, given his uncertainity on to why he raised it, I think he should have done just that... Check, and see what happens. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, Snorbolus, 28. Apr 2003 05:37 | ||
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| I compleetly agree with 4 POKER here. After 6 limpers, a raise for vlaue with AQs from the big blind is certainly +EV. I think that you already have suffucent immediate odds to try for your flush draw - even if only 1 player calls your raise (there are sure to be more than 1). That is before you even begin to think about the implied odds or your other chances to win in the very unlikely event that you get few callers. However, when you miss the flop (and this flop did completely miss) you have to check - fold. I cant imagine ever betting into 6 players on a pure bluff with a king on board. That said, I don't play middle limit. So my advice might be way off. Snorbolus on 27. Apr 2003 16:15 4 POKER wrote: > I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with his play pre-flop. > You can raise AQ suited out of the big blind as a value raise. Even if there's several players in ........ | ||
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| Re: middle limit holdem game, shorn, 28. Apr 2003 06:59 | ||
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| I agree with 4POKER and Snorlbus here. Raise pre-flop for value, bet the raggedy flop to show strength, but slow donw (check fold) the turn when you don't improve. Calling on the end with Ace high especially after betting and being called on both previous streets is a bad bad play. | ||
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