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On Moving Up - An Idea, Paul Stine, 25. Apr 2003 22:30
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On Moving Up - An Idea

Many times I have seen, here and on other forums, someone asking when it is time to move up; increase the standard limit at which one plays. Most of the questions are couched in terms of doing X well at Y limit for Z amount of time.

First, there is a bankroll consideration which I think has been discussed to death and which I won't consider here, expect to say that you shouldn't consider moving up if you have inadequate bankroll to withstand normal fluctuations at the new limit.

Second, there is a consideration of the increase in skill of the regular players at the new limit. I don't believe that this can be answered in the abstract, only testing play at the new limit will tell you if your skills justify the move.

OK, I'll admit, there is nothing new so far.

Now, consider the following: Suppose you normally play at limit C, where D is the next higher limit (to which you are considering moving) and B and A are, respectively, lower limits. I propose that if a player can move down a limit or two for a period of time and still perform at the same or better level than at limit C, the player is mentally and emotionally ready to test limit D.

My thinking is that if you can play at a lower limit with the same maturity (or seriousness or whatever you want to call it) and degree of adaptation that you play your regular limit then you should be able to play at a higher limit as well.

For example, say your regular limit is 5-10 and your records (note: records, not hubris) show that you have been beating the game for the last 1000 hours for $15/hour. (Congrats, you are up $15K.) You think you are ready to move up to 10-20 and have sufficient bankroll to play because you didn't spend your bankroll on wine, women, song or a really nice John Deere riding mower with automatic transmission, traction control, headlights, CD player, cup holders and a little trailer. My thinking is that if you could move down to, say, 3-6 for a month or two and show the same or better results (in terms of big bets per hour) that you have shown in 5-10, then you are ready to start testing the waters of 10-20.

(I should inject here that another couple months at 5-10, after the 3-6 stint, probably wouldn't hurt.)

Now, if you do worse, you can't use any excuses like, "The player at 3-6 never fold to my raises." and "They draw to the end with gutshots." etc. etc. Being ready to move up means being able to adjust to changes in play, so if you can't adjust to changes when you move down to a limit where you have played before, how can you adjust to changes as you move up to a limit where you have never (or seldom) played? Could you play for pinto beans after playing 5-10?

So, there is my idea. I would like to know what you all think.

Paul Stine
College Station, TX
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Re: On Moving Up - An Idea, 4 POKER, 25. Apr 2003 23:02
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Absolutely correct, Paul.
Being able to adjust in the game is very important. If you're regular game is 10-20 and feel the desire to move up a notch then you have to prepare yourself for a different type of game. Maybe this game will play more aggressively, maybe you'll have to raise more, or you'll have to play tighter, whatever. You have to be able to adjust your game so it will fit in with the other players. One that will give you an advantage.
Now, let's say there was no 10-20 game today and the next available limit was just too high for you to play in, what would you do?
You would probably, I know I would, move down a level and play at the 5-10 game. Why not? But if you had the attitude of thinking that you were too good now and were just going to run over this line-up, then think again. And if you went to play in a game that was even lower then that, don't even try to make all those fancy and overly aggresive plays...that won't work here!! You must be able to go from the higher limits to the lower limits just as comfortably as you would if you were going from your usual limit to the higher limit. When high limit players think that they can bully a game because it's so much lower then the limit they're used to playing in, they actually lose sight of the big picture. They make sophisticatd plays that just aren't profitable at the lower limits... noone's paying attention to that. They make these incredible moves, one's that are perfect for the high limit games and then they wonder why they can't beat this 3-6 game!! Well, it's because they forgot to adjust there game. They forgot to realize that straightfoward poker will probably work best here. And if anyone has noticed you being a high limit player, then maybe you should try and be a little less noticed at the table. What I mean is, Don't act like a bully, don't make the others feel uncomfortable, just be nice to them and take their money quietly if you can.
I know this guy, believe it or not who regularly plays $100-200 and above- He can and DOES occasionally sit in the $4-8 games as well.
Not too often, but he does. He is a married man whose wife just started playing poker and plays for hours on end. She just hates to leave the poker room! Well if this guy doesn't have a game to play in, while he's sitting there waiting for his wife he will jump into a $4-8 hold-em game. And let me tell you, if this guy loses $20, he's pissed!
He takes the game so seriously and plays just as good a game in the $4-8 limit as he does in the $100-200 limit. It's amazing, but he has so much discipline and respect for money and the other players as well, that he never thinks he's too good for anybody.

4 POKER
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Re: On Moving Up - An Idea, timmer, 26. Apr 2003 06:27
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on 25. Apr 2003 22:30 Paul Stine wrote:
> On Moving Up - An Idea
>

> First, there is a bankroll consideration which I think has been discussed to
> death and which I won't consider here, expect to say that you shouldn't consider
> moving up if you have inadequate bankroll to withstand normal fluctuations at
> the new limit. > For example, say your regular limit is 5-10 and your records (note: records,
> not hubris) show that you have been beating the game for the last 1000 hours for
> $15/hour. (Congrats, you are up $15K.) You think you are ready to move up to
> 10-20 and have sufficient bankroll to play because you didn't spend your
> bankroll on wine, women, song or a really nice John Deere riding mower with
> automatic transmission, traction control, headlights, CD player, cup holders and
> a little trailer
>
If you have won 15K in the 10 you *do* have the bankroll for the 20 given a 300BB senario and have some money left over for couple of bottles of Thunderbird, a nice looking clean hooker and a new Bad Company 8 track for your second hand 2 stroke toro push model with a broken muffler. There is also something to be said for free rolling your way up to the next limit.


> Second, there is a consideration of the increase in skill of the regular
> players at the new limit. I don't believe that this can be answered in the
> abstract, only testing play at the new limit will tell you if your skills
> justify the move.
>
> OK, I'll admit, there is nothing new so far.
>
> Now, consider the following: Suppose you normally play at limit C, where D is
> the next higher limit (to which you are considering moving) and B and A are,
> respectively, lower limits. I propose that if a player can move down a limit or
> two for a period of time and still perform at the same or better level than at
> limit C, the player is mentally and emotionally ready to test limit D.
>
>>
. My thinking is that if you could move down to, say, 3-6 for a
> month or two and show the same or better results (in terms of big bets per hour)
> that you have shown in 5-10, then you are ready to start testing the waters of
> 10-20.
>
> (I should inject here that another couple months at 5-10, after the 3-6 stint,
> probably wouldn't hurt.)
>
>Could you play for pinto beans after playing 5-10?
>
> So, there is my idea. I would like to know what you all think.
>
> Paul Stine
> College Station, TX

Do you think it would be appropriate to just play some at all three limits ? As long as you kept a adequate and supportable database for each limit ? I think if you used a modest table entry critiria you could go for the 20 right away. Just dont get too stuck up there and be unwilling to move back down.
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Re: On Moving Up - An Idea, Giocatore, 26. Apr 2003 08:10
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Very interesting post. I'll tell you something . . . I recently took a beating at the limits I normally play, and I now find myself in the process of rebuilding my bankroll. I began at 1/2 and found the games I was in to be quite easy to beat. After an excellent week or so at this level, up nearly 200 big bets, I decided to move up a notch to 2/4, and to be honest, the discrepency in skill between the 1/2 and 2/4 was incredible. After several sessions where I either ended up either up a few, even or done a few, I decided it would just be better to remain at 1/2 because I was 100% confident that I could beat that game, whereas at the 2/4 I was completely aware that I was up against much better competition and didn't have the confidence I had at the lower limit. In the meantime, I've been fine tuning my game and trying to correct some of the costly mistakes that I made at the higher limits, and so far it seems to be working. I'll admit that even though these games are easy to beat, I sometimes get bored "grinding it out," trying to rebuild the empire. But I realized from past mistakes that this is the best way to go.
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Re: On Moving Up - An Idea, Big_Slick, 27. Apr 2003 18:47
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Would be curious to know what type of mistakes you were making in the 2/4 game that you were getting away with in the 1/2 game.

thanks.
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Re: On Moving Up - An Idea, Giocatore, 27. Apr 2003 19:21
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on 27. Apr 2003 18:47 Big_Slick wrote:
> Would be curious to know what type of mistakes you were making in the 2/4 game that you were
> getting away with in the 1/2 game.
>
> thanks.

It's not so much the mistakes but the quality of the opposition. I didn't end up getting killed at the 2/4, it's just that I found my opponents to be much better than at the 1/2. For example, I raised just after UTG with AKs at 1/2, surprisingly everyone folded to the BB who called. Flop came 10-A-10. Turn and river were blanks. BB checked to me each time and I ended up winning the pot. I requested a HH minutes afterwards wanting to see if I had "outkickered" him. To my amazement he called with 2-2. Incredible. What did he think I had? Especially considering that everyone else had folded and it was just him and I in the pot. At 2/4 I'm sure a player in that exact same spot would not have paid me off. So my point is that even though the limits are lower and it takes longer to win a fair amount (I try to make 400-500 a week to supplement my regular income, quite successful), it's better for me to stay in a 1/2 game where I know I have a bigger edge over my opposition that at the 2/4, slightly higher but tougher competition. For some odd reason I prefer to win quick as opposed to grinding it out at a lower limit, but in this particular instance it's better for me to remain at the 1/2 game where I know the opposition is weak rather than to move up to 2/4 or 3/6 hoping for quicker sessions.
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Re: On Moving Up: Preping for aggressive players, flintsword, 26. Apr 2003 08:48
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Great idea, and after getting thoroughly roasted after going up one level, I am looking for good ideas to improve my adaptability. You have a good idea. If the higher level has a certain kind of player, the "ram and jam" the pot kind of aggressive, ... how can you specifically train or prepare your game for this kind of poker animal? Moving up is not only about limits and poker skill, but also (it seems) certain "kinds" of players that are - frankly - new to me and a-n-n-o-y-i-n-g.
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Re: On Moving Up - An Idea, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 10:44
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That's increadibly good advice Paul. Once again, thanks for being here.
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