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Server Time: 9/6/2008 4:26:07 PM PACIFIC |
 middle pair raises, AField4, 25. Apr 2003 22:22 | ||
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| I am a new player who plays regularly in low limit games. My games are usually very loose-passive with an occasional 1 or 2 somewhat aggressive players. In Lee Jones LLHE book he recommends raising pre-flop with pairs as low as 88 when in late position and in an unraised pot. I know this must be correct but it seems that in the type of games i play in 88 would very rarely hold up. The only hope is to flop trips but it seems like this will not happen often and when it does it still may not always win. I would always most certainly call in this position but i find myself very hesitant to raise even though that is the recommended play. In this sort of no-fold-em game I would even hesitate to raise with 9s and even 10s. A few sessions ago i raised on the button with jj only to find out later that a middle position caller was holding kk. He simply called all the way to the river, never betting once. Will it truly be more profitable to raise with middle pairs like 99 and 88? | ||
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| Re: middle pair raises, NiceFella, 26. Apr 2003 01:00 | ||
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| I am a believer in raising middle pairs after a whole field of passive players has limped in. In your example, you were just unlucky that a weak player limped with his big pair. If find this to be a common fault of low-limit players. You based your raise on misinformation because of his limp, but in the long run his limping is costing him a lot of money at the game because he's not getting full value for his hand and letting limpers suck out on him. Basically against a large field of players you want to flop a set. This goes for pairs as high as JJ. You're a 7.5:1 dog to get a set or better on the flop. So if you raise 4 or 5 limpers before the flop, it's likely that all the limpers and the big blind are going to call (that's 5 or 6:1 on your raise), and you'll almost be getting your pot odds immediately. If you do flop your set you'll be able to raise with impunity and get paid all the way down. The pot odds are definitely there for a raise with a pair before the flop. Also, by raising before the flop, you are in a power position after the flop. Even simple players will be suspicious of your hand. Others will put you on AK, AA or otherwise misread your hand. All things being equal, I prefer to be in the driver's seat on a hand. Yes, sometimes you'll flop your set and you still won't win. Help avoid this by never slowplaying your set. Bet right out. A set is not a hand that weak opponents will put you on right away, especially if you raised preflop. With all the money that will be going into the pot, I'm sure you'll get proper odds to make up for the times you get sucked out on. Of course, I don't raise preflop with very small pocket pairs. Part of the value of good pocket pairs comes when they hold up unimproved, or perhaps even when they turn into a weak straight draw. If you miss your set and smell trouble, give up immediately. Even calling one bet on the flop is too much when you've only got two outs. I'm very interested to hear others' input on this subject! NiceFella | ||
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| Re: middle pair raises, 4 POKER, 26. Apr 2003 04:03 | ||
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| It really depends on the game that you are playing in. If your game is tight then you can raise more often with medium pairs. It's also a good hand in late position to steal the blinds with. Another thing you have to keep in mind is, what is your position with this hand? If the game you're playing in is loose and passive like you mentioned, then it all depends on whose behind you and who has limped in already. If a couple of players already called in front of me I would not feel the need to raise with 8-8. It's a hand that really has to hit on the flop because there's just too many overcards that will force you to throw it away if you don't flop good. In fact, I would just call and hope that others behind me called as well; I want a lot of volume with my small to medium pairs because if I do happen to get lucky and flop a set, I can yield myself a really big pot.(yeah you can flop a set and still lose, but you can flop a set of AA's and lose that one, too so I'm not even going to get into the "bad beat" thing here). You have to keep in mind that even though you may want to play this hand against one or two opponents, you're still going to have to hit something on the flop. In these low-limit games, Players will call your bet on the flop if they make a pair or any kind of drawing hand so you really won't be able to make too many moves that will drive anybody out. And if they flop a pair that is higher then your 8-8, well forget about it, you will be called down to the river, especially if they flopped top pair. So that is why I would rather limp in, take a peek at the flop, if I hit my bingo card, great, if I don't, I'm gone. I saved a bet by not raising and I don't feel the need to try and bully everyone in the hand now 'cause I raised it pre-flop. Keep in mind that when your playing in a relatively loose game, medium pairs really don't have that much more strength then the small pairs do. I would play these hands more often then I would play the small pairs however, I would almost always play them the same way, as if they were just a small pair- limp in and hope to get lucky. Like I said in the beginning, if you are fortunate enough where everyone has folded to you, and you are in a very late position or on the button, then you can definitely raise your medium pair now. Just try not to put to much emphasis on the fact that you may have the best hand to start, medium pairs can become quite costly if you're constantly going to be raising with them pre-flop. If you were playing in a high limit game or if your game was shorthanded, then that's a different story; pocket pairs are more valuable when the stakes get higher- players are making more moves, getting people off of their hands preflop and they can actually be profitable under these circumstances. And when the game is shorthanded, the medium pairs will play well, too. But when the game is loose and filled with a bunch of calling stations, just limp in and save yourself some bets for when you do have a big hand. That's my opinion, anyway. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: middle pair raises, shorn, 28. Apr 2003 06:27 | ||
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| The only other thing to point out is that if you do raise pre-flop after 4 or 5 passive callers, they may check to you and give you another small shot to make your medium set if the flop misses you. So, you are raising for two reasons: (1) win a big pot when you hit, (2) potentially see the turn for free if you don't. I find that the addition of this (small) chance to see another card for nothing often makes raising the right play. Now as you point out, you must get away from the hand if you don't hit, but that fact alone shouldn't prevent you from raising. | ||
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| Re: middle pair raises, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 10:42 | ||
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| You can raise your 88 for value when there are a lot of preflop limpers and you get the added benefit of deception. You have position too, so you'll often be checked to (a lot of beginners follow the "check to the raiser" philosophy) and can draw a free card if you don't hit. | ||
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| Re: middle pair raises, noiseboy, 28. Apr 2003 13:55 | ||
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| The thing you need to think about with the medium pairs in late position is that you would prefer a lot of players, in which you have odds to flop a set, or very few players where a medium pair will sometimes hold up unimproved. I will usually raise with medium pairs when there are a lot of limpers and I am around back because I want to build the pot if I hit my set. Also, this will cause players to misread your hand, sometimes checking it to you on the flop and giving you another free chance to hit the set if the flop wasn't something you wanted to see, such as when overcards have fallen. If there are only one or two players who have limped, I will raise trying to knock out the blinds and get some dead money in the pot and also increase the chance that my hand will hold up. Short handed, often smallish pairs will win when your opponents are on two big card hands or small connectors. One thing to keep in mind, is that there are players out there who like to limp with big pairs from early position, you have to be careful with this play if some of these players are in your game. | ||
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