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Server Time: 9/4/2008 10:22:22 PM PACIFIC |
 Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, Chris James, 25. Apr 2003 11:56 | ||
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| I need help playing JJ pre-flop! Background: The game I play in is a No-Limit Hold-em winner-take-all home game with ten players. 7 opponents are passive and loose and not afraid to call big raises pre-flop. 3 opponents are aggressive and semi-tight. The situation: Every time am dealt JJ I get myself into a sticky situation. I usually raise big and get 2-3 callers. Inevitably a Q, K, or A hits the flop. At which point, If I am first to act, I do one of two things: 1. Check 2. Raise big When I check, my opponents see weakness and bet me out. Therefore I sometimes raise big to "represent." I am sure this must be a massive mistake because when I raise I am usually re-raised (at which point I fold)or just called and trapped with top pair. If I am not first to act, I usually fold if I am bet into or bet large if I am checked to. I have gotten so paranoid about an overcard hitting the flop that I now go all-in pre-flop every time I am dealt JJ. I no longer feel confident in playing the hand from the flop on. Does anyone have any advice? | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, MouseBeast, 25. Apr 2003 12:22 | ||
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| I would just bet that pair for some value (let the amount depend on your position and the texture of the table/other players) then layed it down after the flop. Seems like half the table would have limped in with you making a small bet, or a call. Going all in pre-flop probably wouldnt have scared off everyone either, so you're stuck with anyone calling your all in having a good chance of beating ya with his overcard. J J isnt really a strong hand at all, in no-limit, especially with so many loose players. BTW: 7-Loose + 3 Tight = 10 players.. which style do u spot yourself on? Keep it Squeaky, MouseBeast ~~(__)8> | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, Chris James, 25. Apr 2003 12:35 | ||
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| Hi, Thank you for your advice. To answer your question, I am one of the aggresive three. I tend to be a little loose at times, but I am far more tight than the 7 passive players. However, of the three agressive players, I am the most loose. on 25. Apr 2003 12:22 MouseBeast wrote: > I would just bet that pair for some value (let the amount depend on your position and > the texture of the table/other players) then layed it down after the flop. Seems > like half the table would have limped in with you making a small bet, or a call. > Going all in pre-flop probably wouldnt have scared off everyone either, so you're > stuck with anyone calling your all in having a good chance of beating ya with his > overcard. J J isnt really a strong hand at all, in no-limit, especially with so many > loose players. > > BTW: 7-Loose + 3 Tight = 10 players.. which style do u spot yourself on? > > Keep it Squeaky, > MouseBeast ~~(__)8> | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, MouseBeast, 25. Apr 2003 12:29 | ||
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| One more dumb thought: If you were in anyone else's shoes at that table, what would you call and all in bet with? Even for tight players, there's several I would easily call... and for a slight maniac, there's a couple more yet. Chances are, just about every one of those hands would end up beating your Jacks.. so.. Keep it Squeaky, MouseBeast ~~(__)8> | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, Paul Stine, 25. Apr 2003 12:35 | ||
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| on 25. Apr 2003 12:29 MouseBeast wrote: > One more dumb thought: If you were in anyone else's shoes at that table, what would > you call and all in bet with? Even for tight players, there's several I would easily > call... and for a slight maniac, there's a couple more yet. Chances are, just about > every one of those hands would end up beating your Jacks.. so.. > > Keep it Squeaky, > MouseBeast ~~(__)8> If they are playing a winner take all format with no rebuys and busting out means going home, is this a hand with which you would be happy going bust? Kind of like "The System" proposed by Sklansky, it only works against players who will lay down a hand to an all-in raise. Once it fails, you are done. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, shorn, 25. Apr 2003 12:35 | ||
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| You might try limping with JJ in no limit since it is a loose table and see how you like the flop. Especially in early position, this hand does not play well against 3 or 4 opponents; you want 1 or 2 or a bundle, so either your hand holds up on its own (1 or 2 opponents) or you flop your set against the whole table. Limping also gives you the option of laying it down pre-flop to a big bet which will give you more info. about your opponents hands as well. When the overcard flops (and most certainly when it is an Ace or King), you have to figure you are beat and lay it down. If you aren't beat, you aren't going to win any $$ anyway, so making a big bet here is a lost cause (unless you are heads up with a chance to win it right there). | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, MouseBeast, 25. Apr 2003 12:42 | ||
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| This is probably the much smarter play. I just came off a tear where i was at a table with probably 8 loose agressive maniac calling stations, and i wanted to make them all pay big to see the flops. It got so that they were ticked that it was getting so expensive to see what normally they could just limp into for next to free. Half of em went on tilt and i got most of their stacks in the process when i drew good hands. Basically made them all play at a higher limit til they went broke. Nothing like throwing a bankroll around for a few hours. Keep it Squeaky, MouseBeast ~~(__)8> | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, 4 POKER, 26. Apr 2003 04:46 | ||
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| on 25. Apr 2003 12:35 shorn wrote: > You might try limping with JJ in no limit since it is a loose table and see how you like > the flop. Especially in early position, this hand does not play well against 3 or 4 > opponents; you want 1 or 2 or a bundle, so either your hand holds up on its own (1 or 2 > opponents) or you flop your set against the whole table. > > Limping also gives you the option of laying it down pre-flop to a big bet which will give > you more info. about your opponents hands as well. When the overcard flops (and most > certainly when it is an Ace or King), you have to figure you are beat and lay it down. If > you aren't beat, you aren't going to win any $$ anyway, so making a big bet here is a lost > cause (unless you are heads up with a chance to win it right there). I totally agree with this type of thinking. No limit play is a lot different then limit and it is all about trapping, not being trapped. With medium to high pairs, sometimes it's best to just limp in quietly, if you flop reaaly good then you can be in the driver's seat. If you get outflopped by a bunch of overcards, you can get away from J-J real easy and cheaply. The key to no limit is to put minimal amount of money preflop in hoping to then put in maximum bets after the flop. Unless you're holding AA, AK suited or KK, you really don't have to committ too many of your chips preflop. And quite often players will limp in with their monster holdings to try and trap someone whose holding an inferior pair, so you really have to be careful with these semi-big pairs. Someone holding AA might very well limp in when there in early position, now you raise with your JJ and now the AA comes over the top... then what? What would you do here? I would look at JJ as more of a positional steal raise hand. In limit poker it's a different story, but in no limit, it's a blind stealer and not much more. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, Paul Stine, 25. Apr 2003 12:31 | ||
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| on 25. Apr 2003 11:56 Chris James wrote: > I need help playing JJ pre-flop! > > Background: The game I play in is a No-Limit Hold-em > winner-take-all home game with ten players. 7 opponents are passive and loose > and not afraid to call big raises pre-flop. 3 opponents are aggressive and > semi-tight. > > The situation: Every time am dealt JJ I get myself into a sticky situation. > I usually raise big and get 2-3 callers. Inevitably a Q, K, or A hits the flop. > At which point, If I am first to act, I do one of two things: > > 1. Check > 2. Raise big > > When I check, my opponents see weakness and bet me out. Therefore I sometimes > raise big to "represent." I am sure this must be a massive mistake because when > I raise I am usually re-raised (at which point I fold)or just called and trapped > with top pair. > > If I am not first to act, I usually fold if I am bet into or bet large if I am > checked to. > > I have gotten so paranoid about an overcard hitting the flop that I now go > all-in pre-flop every time I am dealt JJ. I no longer feel confident in playing > the hand from the flop on. Does anyone have any advice? You are right, when you hold JJ, the chances of an A, K or Q coming on the flop is about 57%, and on the board (all 5 cards) is about 76%. So, if you find yourself constantly getting into trouble with JJ you might try getting in cheap and then apply the "No Set, No Bet" method. Another approach would be to give up the hand in early or middle position as you probably aren't giving up much, anyway. Thanks to Brian Alspach for doing the math on this, read is webpage at http://www.math.sfu.ca/~alspach/comp34/ (Table 1) Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Playing JJ pre-flop in No Limit, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 10:39 | ||
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| This hand plays very poorly against 2-3 opponents. Either raise it enough preflop to get exactly one caller or steal the blinds or don't raise it at all preflop and hope to hit a set or overpair. JJ is not nearly as good a hand as it looks on the surface. | ||
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