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AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, Tommy waggoner, 25. Apr 2003 10:19
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This was a 15-30 holdem game with a kill. It was a kill pot, and I was in the SB with AQo. It was folded too the kill who checked in middle position, and the cuttoff called, as did the button, who I knew to be a very solid tightish pro. I decided to just call the other 20 dollars, and checkraise the flop if I hit. The BB also called. The flop was K J 3 rainbow, it was checked to the button who bet, I called figuring 7 outs to a gut shot or pair of aces, everyone else folded. The turn was the best card I could get, an offsuit 10. I decided to play it tricky, cause I knew him to be the type of player who could get away from a Jack, and maybe a small King if I lead out or checkraised. I checked, he bet, and I just called, planning to bet out at the river. The river was another J, so now I figure he might be full for some reason, and check, and he bets, and just as I release my 60 bucks in the pot he says I'm full, and shows me the KJ. I felt like I did something wrong with this hand, although I ended up playing it as cheaply as possible. any comments?
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, MouseBeast, 25. Apr 2003 11:47
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If you figured he might be full, then why did u let him see the river so cheap?

Keep it Squeaky,
MouseBeast ~~(__)8>
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, shorn, 25. Apr 2003 12:25
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I think you definitely need to CR the turn here. Yes, you aren't going to knock him off his two pair and it ended up that it was cheaper the way that you did it, but you have to get as much $$ in the pot when you know you have the best of it. Effectively, you let him control the hand the whole way and he hit on the end. What would you have done is a blank came on the river? If you check, then he might check too and you lose two bets (no raise on the turn and the river bet). My philosophy is that a lot of players will continue to bet the turn but check the showdown without improvement so make him pay on the turn for the priviledge to draw out on you on the river. Also, he could have been leading out with something like AT hoping to catch a Q for the straight.

This is one of those hands that cost you the minimum because you played it benignly.
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, Andrew Wells, 25. Apr 2003 13:33
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I probably go ahead and lead on the turn. I don't want to be giving a free card with that much paint on the board when he could catch up to the nut straight for a chop. I think that anything he folds here he could very well fold to a blank on the river when you bet. If he already has a decent pair, then his kicker gives him some shots at the nut straight which he might call you with. If he has a hand better than JT you could get raised which allows you to make it three bets with the best hand. Best of all the ten could have cold decked a Q9s. Of course I would lose more this hand, but the EV is greater.
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, SoCalPat, 25. Apr 2003 23:04
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You have to let him know on the turn that you're ahead. Not betting is one thing, but you have to raise when he bets. That's a scary board, and he might go ahead and fold his four-outer. It's unlikely in this scenario, but if he's also holding a single Q or A, you can't give him a chance to chop.

In the end, you payed the same price to the showdown, but you never gave him the chance to fold on the turn. You should have raised the turn, and if you're confident in your hand-reading ability, you should have folded to his bet after the J fell. Regardless, you should get money in the pot when you're clearly ahead, but can still be outdrawn.
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, 4 POKER, 26. Apr 2003 15:35
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I would have made a straightfoward bet on the turn. This player was tight but he obviously had a hand here. There were five players in the hand already and even though everyone checked to him, I don't think he would have bet the flop without holding a King or at very least a Jack.
When the turn card brought the 10, giving you the nut straight, don't be so quick to think that this player is now going to fold just because you led at the turn- you weren't betting into an entire field, you were heads up at this point and you could have had several holdings that were not as good as his. Plus, if he is a tight player he might not even bet the turn but he probably will call if you bet. Keep in mind that he's not going to be betting on this round if he has absolutely nothing, but if he does have a hand he will be calling your bet and if he has two pair or was limping in with a wired big pair then he might even raise you on the turn and now you can reraise getting you an extra bet out of him, perhaps even four bets. The checkraise might only get you two big bets. Whenever you checkraise a player that usually sends a signal that you have the nuts; but by leading at the turn it doesn't really say that much at all. He might realize that you perceive him as being a very tight player and might think that your trying to make a move on the hand to get him to throw away what might be the best hand---he will definitely call you now if that is what he's thinking you are trying to do here.
There were five people in this hand preflop at $45 a player ($225) and the two of you put in another small bet on the flop adding another $90, standing the pot now at $315. That's a pretty big pot to be giving someone a free card. I would be more apt to bet right out and take the profit. If he has a hand you will make even more profit... you just happened to get unlucky, that is all.
Remember, MORE money is made in poker by being straightfoward then it is by checkraising. You can't rely on someone to bet your hand for you all the time, so taking that risk to just go for a checkraise will cost you more money in the long run then it will earn you money.
These close-call decisions in poker will sometimes be that key factors between having a winning session to booking a losing session.

4 POKER
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, 4 POKER, 26. Apr 2003 16:35
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Another thing I need to add is when you checked the turn, weren't you doing that so you can now checkraise him? I really don't understand why you would feel the need to get tricky now when the hand is almost over. You say he's a tight player?... Don't you think he had a hand to be betting on the flop and the turn?? There is no need to try and get fancy now, the pot is big, and in this particular situation you made the most out of it by checkraising, you got your wish, now RAISE. At this late stage of the hand you really shouldn't be giving your opponent a break, you have the nuts and now it's definitely the time to press it. There is no way this tight player was not going to be calling your raise. It means nothing that in hindsight you actually saved yourself a big bet.
When you have the best of it, and you're an overall percentage winner with the nuts on the turn, all those extra bets that you can get out of your opponent will out-weigh the occasional times when they draw out on you. tough break.

4 POKER
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, Tommy waggoner, 27. Apr 2003 12:08
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on 26. Apr 2003 16:35 4 POKER wrote:
> Another thing I need to add is when you checked the turn, weren't you doing that so
> you can now checkraise him? I really don't understand why you would feel the need to
> get tricky now when the hand is almost over. You say he's a tight player?... Don't
> you think he had a hand to be betting on the flop and the turn?? There is no need to
> try and get fancy now, the pot is big, and in this particular situation you made the
> most out of it by checkraising, you got your wish, now RAISE. At this late stage of
> the hand you really shouldn't be giving your opponent a break, you have the nuts and
> now it's definitely the time to press it. There is no way this tight player was not
> going to be calling your raise. It means nothing that in hindsight you actually saved
> yourself a big bet.
> When you have the best of it, and you're an overall percentage winner with the nuts
> on the turn, all those extra bets that you can get out of your opponent will
> out-weigh the occasional times when they draw out on you. tough break.
>
> 4 POKER

The more I think about it, the more I think I played this hand terrible. For some strange reason, I kept thinking that I didn't want to lose him, and was afraid that I would if I bet out, or checkraised him. Looking back, I don't know where that logic came from. I was so concerned with getting paid off that I never bet my hand with way the best of it.
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 13:24
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on 27. Apr 2003 12:08 Tommy waggoner wrote:
> on 26. Apr 2003 16:35 4 POKER wrote:
> > Another thing I need to add is when you checked the turn, weren't you doing that so
> > you can now checkraise him? I really don't understand why you would feel the need to
> > get tricky now when the hand is almost over. You say he's a tight player?... Don't
> > you think he had a hand to be betting on the flop and the turn?? There is no need to
> > try and get fancy now, the pot is big, and in this particular situation you made the
> > most out of it by checkraising, you got your wish, now RAISE. At this late stage of
> > the hand you really shouldn't be giving your opponent a break, you have the nuts and
> > now it's definitely the time to press it. There is no way this tight player was not
> > going to be calling your raise. It means nothing that in hindsight you actually saved
>
> > yourself a big bet.
> > When you have the best of it, and you're an overall percentage winner with the nuts
> > on the turn, all those extra bets that you can get out of your opponent will
> > out-weigh the occasional times when they draw out on you. tough break.
> >
> > 4 POKER
>
> The more I think about it, the more I think I played this hand terrible. For some strange
> reason, I kept thinking that I didn't want to lose him, and was afraid that I would if I
> bet out, or checkraised him. Looking back, I don't know where that logic came from. I was
> so concerned with getting paid off that I never bet my hand with way the best of it.

Hey,
You know something?
Sometimes it's a lot easier to totally look at the whole situation from the outside. I'm sure I have done the exact same thing that you have done once or twice in the course of my poker career.
You made your decision to not raise on the turn because you feared that you might lose him. That probably made perfect sense to you at the given moment, It's just that these borderline decisions that we are faced with sometimes are really not as borderline as you may think, once you factor in the total results $$ over the course of a lifetime. If he hadn't hit his full house on the river I bet you would have never given your decision a second thought. So having said that, I think that bad beat that you took will now enable you to make clearer and more profitable choices in the future.
See, it wasn't really a bad beat at all!! Any time we learn from our previous actions, we earn... good for you, and hang in there.

4 POKER
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Re: AQo in the SB, 30-60 kill pot hand, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 10:24
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I've played with a lot of players who play hands like this and I pound on them, and for good reason.

You're being giantly passive here.

Here's the theme of this hand - When I have good cards I'll play slow so that I can punish them when I have a hand. When I have a very marginal holding I'll come along and hope to hit (implied odds are great, but what makes you think your ace is live?) and when I do hit I'll play slow again to be tricky. The errors are countless. Now your limp with the AQ is defensible since you are out of position and your reasoning is fine. Checkraising the flop with a strong holding would be good if you hit.

Now your play on the flop is questionable - you're way out of position and you're holding a gutshot. Assuming that you hit your ace, you're looking at an extremely scary board - certainly everybody in the hand has a draw to a straight and I would be very shocked if someone didn't have 2 pair. Even if your ace is good, you're going to have zero implied odds with it.

Now when you do hit your miracle gutshot for the nuts, you should be betting like stink. Take the money now if you can, getting called or raised is great too, but don't don't don't don't don't give a free card.

And now on the river, you refuse to bet again because of the chance an opponent tightened up. Well, I wouldn't have bet this river either, but I would have put money into the pot so I wouldn't likely be called by hands that didn't beat me. You've been bumbling along through the whole hand and are totally disguised, so chances are good that you'll be called by somebody with two pair or trips - in fact somebody with trips will likely raise you and you can call that. Here you are sitting on a monster that nobody is aware of and yet you just check-call.

As far as I'm concerned you would have been better off throwing the AQ away from the small blind preflop than playing it that badly.
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