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Blind Stealer, JLenart, 24. Apr 2003 09:11
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OK, so last night I'm doing pretty well at the 5/10 feeder table, loseing only small pots and raking a few big ones. After about 2 hours I get moved to the main 5/10 table. Its a pretty staright forward game with some solid players. One guy ,2 to my right, keeps raising the blind every time he's on the button and I'm in the BB. The first time I have rags and fold ,same with the second and third. So now I'm thinking he thinks I'm too tight to call a raise preflop. So I figure I'll hit him when I get a solid hand in the BB. Sure enough on the next round he raises my BB from the button, but this time I have pocket queens so I reraise and he calls. The flop comes 10 A 3 rainbow. he bets I raise he calls, the turn is a rag, I check he bets I call. Now I figure him for Axs or A and a high kicker. However I want him to see that I can play agressively and am not an easy push over. It might cost me some checks now but It's about making a statement. The river comes a J, I check he bets I call. he flips over AQo. I show my pocket QQ.

An older guy to my left and I had been talking about this guy stealing my blinds before that hand and this guy told me I had to make that strong stand to let him know i wouldn't get bullied. Sure enough not only did the blind stealer not raise me for the rest of the night but when the table folded around to him and he called, the SB folded I raised with rags just to see what would happen, the he folded.

My question is this, I knew I was going to lose the battle with my pocket QQ but I was willing to sacrifice that to win the war. Did i do the right thing?
I suppose I could have folded after the flop and showed the QQ but that still says I'm playing so tight I won't call without the nuts.

Any Thoughts?

Thanks,

John
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Re: Blind Stealer, Nathaniel Brous, 24. Apr 2003 09:31
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I don't know how to say this politely. Playing poorly cost you money. If it is your rational that you are going to get future dividends from playing poorly, than so be it. Just make sure your right. I think you could of saved that tenner for a better hand and made money with it. - Nathaniel Brous
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Re: Blind Stealer, noiseboy, 24. Apr 2003 09:43
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Hi there,

Do you really think it's that clear cut? I mean when someone is stealing on you at every opportunity, he could have just as easily had 97 off as AQ. Basically, I think the idea of trying for a resteal once in a while is sound, so that you don't get run over, but this person just happened to try it when the opponent happened to be on a real hand. This happens sometimes in tight or short handed games where someone is running you over, but your hands are so terrible you just let them get away with it for a while. Then you get something decent or at least marginal, and you come back firing to let them know you are not weak. It is unfortunate that Murphy's law dictates that the one time you try to bust them on a steal is when they have a premium hand, or they had nothing but catch a lucky rag flop and beat you on some random st8 draw. But that's just part of the hazard or the resteal; however, even if you lose the hand, your aggressive playback might make the stealer think twice before coming after you again, which might be worth it in the long run.
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Re: Blind Stealer, JLenart, 24. Apr 2003 09:45
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Thanks for the positive feed back. I thought that this was the purpose of this forum unlike the above slam at my tactic. As a fairly new player I appreciate you contructive view on my post.
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Re: Blind Stealer response long(ish), Nathaniel Brous, 24. Apr 2003 11:46
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on 24. Apr 2003 09:45 JLenart wrote:
> Thanks for the positive feed back. I thought that this was the purpose of this forum unlike the above slam at my tactic. As a fairly new player I appreciate you constructive view on my post.

Wow. I thought I was being blunt, not rude. But when I read it again, it does seem pretty rude. My big mistake here was leaving the things I was thinking unsaid. I actually had to run for a bit. I should written more before sending. Sorry 'bout that. Let me expound for you.

Right away, I think you are taking his stealing of your blinds personally. You don't "know" what he is thinking. He could very well be getting a good run of cards. You might actually want to thank him for making you trash your crappy hands you may get sucked in with.

You catch QQ and decide to "get him." Here is my second problem with your post. You raise here? I thought you wanted to get him. Look, QQ is a pretty good hand true, but it is vulnerable and you are not going to drop him with this raise. More importantly, you are going to have terrible position throughout the hand. It is here, I believe you consciously or subconsciously decided you were going to see a river no matter what.

Next problem. You check raise the flop. That's fine if he is bluffing and will release, but otherwise you have to check the turn in front of him and reveal your weakness. The other thing about your checkraise is that if he does not have an Ace and he checks the turn with you (with second pair), you have just lost more money and doesn't fit with the "get him" theory.

The turn comes and you have him figured correctly. Kudos. Yet you don't listen to yourself and decide to call and call again on the river. You say you are showing him that you can play aggressively and won't be a push over. I say that you are telling him that he can value bet at you all day long and you will call him down.

Next...by showing him your hand, you are explaining to him exactly how you play poker and you are losing more with this than anything you had hoped to gain. You then tell us that it is about making a statement. I think your play here made a different statement than you intended.

Hey JLenart...I love this forum and was trying more to throw water on your face (as in wake up) than be a real jerk. I am sorry to have offended. Poker is a game of good decisions influenced by unemotional thinking. You were tilting after the hand not because you made bad decisions, but because you had emotionally connected yourself to the hand and situation.

Don't care what an opponent "thinks of you." If he thinks you are worse than you are than GREAT! You will end up taking his money at the right time. Don't try and "create" a right time. They will come all by themselves. Again...my apologies. I reread my original post and feel that it was not helpful, except maybe forcing me to write this one. I just reread this one and don't think it is exceptionally polite either (I just hope it's more helpful). - Nathaniel Brous
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Re: Blind Stealer response long(ish), 4 POKER, 24. Apr 2003 12:35
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On 24. Apr 2003 11:46 Nathaniel Brous wrote:
> on 24. Apr 2003 09:45 JLenart wrote:
> > Thanks for the positive feed back. I thought that this was the purpose of this forum unlike the
> above slam at my tactic. As a fairly new player I appreciate you constructive view on my post.
>
> Wow. I thought I was being blunt, not rude. But when I read it again, it does seem pretty rude.
> My big mistake here was leaving the things I was thinking unsaid. I actually had to run for a bit.
> I should written more before sending. Sorry 'bout that. Let me expound for you.
>
> Right away, I think you are taking his stealing of your blinds personally. You don't "know" what
> he is thinking. He could very well be getting a good run of cards. You might actually want to
> thank him for making you trash your crappy hands you may get sucked in with.
>
> You catch QQ and decide to "get him." Here is my second problem with your post. You raise here?
> I thought you wanted to get him. Look, QQ is a pretty good hand true, but it is vulnerable and you
> are not going to drop him with this raise. More importantly, you are going to have terrible
> position throughout the hand. It is here, I believe you consciously or subconsciously decided you
> were going to see a river no matter what.
>
> Next problem. You check raise the flop. That's fine if he is bluffing and will release, but
> otherwise you have to check the turn in front of him and reveal your weakness. The other thing
> about your checkraise is that if he does not have an Ace and he checks the turn with you (with
> second pair), you have just lost more money and doesn't fit with the "get him" theory.
>
> The turn comes and you have him figured correctly. Kudos. Yet you don't listen to yourself and
> decide to call and call again on the river. You say you are showing him that you can play
> aggressively and won't be a push over. I say that you are telling him that he can value bet at you
> all day long and you will call him down.
>
> Next...by showing him your hand, you are explaining to him exactly how you play poker and you are
> losing more with this than anything you had hoped to gain. You then tell us that it is about making
> a statement. I think your play here made a different statement than you intended.
>
> Hey JLenart...I love this forum and was trying more to throw water on your face (as in wake up)
> than be a real jerk. I am sorry to have offended. Poker is a game of good decisions influenced by
> unemotional thinking. You were tilting after the hand not because you made bad decisions, but
> because you had emotionally connected yourself to the hand and situation.
>
> Don't care what an opponent "thinks of you." If he thinks you are worse than you are than GREAT!
> You will end up taking his money at the right time. Don't try and "create" a right time. They will
> come all by themselves. Again...my apologies. I reread my original post and feel that it was not
> helpful, except maybe forcing me to write this one. I just reread this one and don't think it is
> exceptionally polite either (I just hope it's more helpful). - Nathaniel Brous

Sometimes the truth hurts,and ego stands in our way.
I think you have a solid understanding of this situation and you also were able to show this player what our emotions can do to us.
You obviously shown me that you're experienced not only in poker but in LIFE as well. Your intelligent, you have good "people skills" and you are advanced in the psychology of poker.

Great response. Very carefully and intelligently thought out.
I thank you,
4 POKER
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Re: Blind Stealer response long(ish), JLenart, 24. Apr 2003 13:47
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Nathaniel,

Thanks for the inpout that was well thought out and something along the lines of what I was looking for. Obviously my strategy back fired on me and I was wondering a. why? and b. Where I went wrong. Your above note helps clarify these things.

Thanks,
John
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Re: Blind Stealer response long(ish), Nathaniel Brous, 24. Apr 2003 14:11
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on 24. Apr 2003 13:47 JLenart wrote:
> Nathaniel, Thanks for the input that was well thought out and something along the lines of what I was looking for. Obviously my strategy back fired on me and I was wondering a. why? and b. Where I went wrong. Your above
> note helps clarify these things. Thanks, John

No. Thank you, John, for pointing out my original post stunk (it did). Back to my original post, I was not debating that you would lose money on the hand or that you shouldn't have played it. I just felt that the extra five before and after the flop, could have been saved for another time. Raising one's own blinds can be a delicate procedure. After all Holdem is very similar to Real Estate, location(position),location, location. Heck ask Roy Cooke. - Nathaniel Brous
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Re: Blind Stealer response long(ish), Paul Stine, 25. Apr 2003 13:09
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on 24. Apr 2003 11:46 Nathaniel Brous wrote:
> on 24. Apr 2003 09:45 JLenart wrote:
> > Thanks for the positive feed back. I thought that this was the purpose of this forum unlike the
> above slam at my tactic. As a fairly new player I appreciate you constructive view on my post.
>
> Wow. I thought I was being blunt, not rude. But when I read it again, it does seem pretty rude.
> My big mistake here was leaving the things I was thinking unsaid. I actually had to run for a bit.
> I should written more before sending. Sorry 'bout that. Let me expound for you.
>
> Right away, I think you are taking his stealing of your blinds personally. You don't "know" what
> he is thinking. He could very well be getting a good run of cards. You might actually want to
> thank him for making you trash your crappy hands you may get sucked in with.
>
> You catch QQ and decide to "get him." Here is my second problem with your post. You raise here?
> I thought you wanted to get him. Look, QQ is a pretty good hand true, but it is vulnerable and you
> are not going to drop him with this raise. More importantly, you are going to have terrible
> position throughout the hand. It is here, I believe you consciously or subconsciously decided you
> were going to see a river no matter what.
>
> Next problem. You check raise the flop. That's fine if he is bluffing and will release, but
> otherwise you have to check the turn in front of him and reveal your weakness. The other thing
> about your checkraise is that if he does not have an Ace and he checks the turn with you (with
> second pair), you have just lost more money and doesn't fit with the "get him" theory.
>
> The turn comes and you have him figured correctly. Kudos. Yet you don't listen to yourself and
> decide to call and call again on the river. You say you are showing him that you can play
> aggressively and won't be a push over. I say that you are telling him that he can value bet at you
> all day long and you will call him down.
>
> Next...by showing him your hand, you are explaining to him exactly how you play poker and you are
> losing more with this than anything you had hoped to gain. You then tell us that it is about making
> a statement. I think your play here made a different statement than you intended.
>
> Hey JLenart...I love this forum and was trying more to throw water on your face (as in wake up)
> than be a real jerk. I am sorry to have offended. Poker is a game of good decisions influenced by
> unemotional thinking. You were tilting after the hand not because you made bad decisions, but
> because you had emotionally connected yourself to the hand and situation.
>
> Don't care what an opponent "thinks of you." If he thinks you are worse than you are than GREAT!
> You will end up taking his money at the right time. Don't try and "create" a right time. They will
> come all by themselves. Again...my apologies. I reread my original post and feel that it was not
> helpful, except maybe forcing me to write this one. I just reread this one and don't think it is
> exceptionally polite either (I just hope it's more helpful). - Nathaniel Brous


I think that a lot of the time when we discuss hands we forget or neglect to consider that poker is a series, even a lifetime, of hands. While each hand (or game or deal) is independent of the others, the players and the plays they make are not.

So, in the long term, big picture sense I think that the play was right on the mark. If you never demonstrate a willingness to take a risk, someone will come along and run all over you by putting you to the test everytime.

If the button had held JJ do you think the hand would have played out the same way, except for the direction the pot was pushed?

Paul Stine
College Station, TX

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Re: Blind Stealer response long(ish), Nathaniel Brous, 25. Apr 2003 17:30
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on 25. Apr 2003 13:09 Paul Stine wrote:
> I think that a lot of the time when we discuss hands we forget or neglect to consider that poker is a series, even a lifetime, of hands. While each hand (or game or deal) is independent of the others, the players and the plays they make are not. So, in the long term, big picture sense I think that the play was right on the mark. If you never demonstrate a willingness to take a risk, someone will come along and run all over you by putting you to the test everytime. If the button had held JJ do you think the hand would have played out the same way, except for the direction the pot was pushed? Paul Stine College Station, TX

There you go again Paul, bringing in logic and reason. lol I do understand the point you are making here. But...I don't think that someone should be in a hurry to snap off an opponent whom they perceive as "taking liberties." You can give up your big blind for two+hours and still make it up with a single hand. It will still sting when you slap him. I advocate patience over anything else.

As far as the JJ thing goes, the pot is still going to be pushed the same way. I am guessing you mean the button has a hand that does "not" make trips on the river. So are you asking in essence, am I using hindsight to recreate a correct series of events? I don't know for sure, in fact I am starting to confuse myself. lol

If I have QQ and my opponent has JJ (that don't improve on the river), I would expect it to play out this way. He raises my blind, I call. I check/call the flop. I check/call the turn (if he doesn't bet the turn, I bet the river). I check the river and call if he bets, which given the info. he probably won't. What happens next? I have more than made up the money he stole. He says to himself, "crap he didn't even raise me with QQ. I am glad I didn't lose more on that hand." This in itself might have the dividends that I believe John was looking for.

Regardless of how it would have played out. John correctly put his opponent on a hand and then called two big bets (the turn being semi reasonable because he is not drawing dead) to prove a point. It may be true that his opponent said to himself afterward, "man I was playing with fire there, thank you Ace!" He could also have simply ran out of good cards on the button.

You mention the big picture. In my original unPC post I state, "Playing poorly cost you money. If it is your rational that you are going to get future dividends from playing poorly, than so be it. Just make sure you're right." This looks rather jerky, but please pay attention to the last sentence. People CAN do short-term negative things to reap long-term positive ones. I simply did not see this happening in this scenario. - Nathaniel Brous
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Re: Blind Stealer, Paul Stine, 25. Apr 2003 12:59
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on 24. Apr 2003 09:31 Nathaniel Brous wrote:
> I don't know how to say this politely. Playing poorly cost you money. If it is your
> rational that you are going to get future dividends from playing poorly, than so be
> it. Just make sure your right. I think you could of saved that tenner for a better
> hand and made money with it. - Nathaniel Brous


Hmmm, going in the BB had the best hand and got three outed.

According to the narrative there the BB check-raised the flop, then check-called it down. I don't have a problem with that, given the marauding nature of the button.

The play probably cost 2 big bets which is the equivalent of giving up 4 big blinds. If the play fends off the steal raises it was probably a good investment in the long run.

I can see checking and calling it down here. I can also see folding my QQ face up, but if I do I know I am probably inviting more pressure when an A flops in the future.

Paul Stine
College Station, TX
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Re: Blind Stealer, noiseboy, 24. Apr 2003 09:35
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Well if he's just trying to run over your, you can't really put him on any kind've hand, so staying to the river with the QQ's even with the overcard might not be such a bad idea. You have to make a stand at some point and better with QQ's than 72o. You are right in pointing out that the reraising isn't really about the current hand, it's about future hands. I'll sometimes do this without any kinda hand in a short handed game just to let them know I can't be pushed around. Sometimes you will get lucky and rags will flop, then you come out firing and pick up the pot.
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Re: Blind Stealer, 4 POKER, 24. Apr 2003 09:44
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Even if this guy was a loose maniac, everyone is entitled to be dealt a good hand.
If you felt like hanging around with two QQ's after the flop brought an ACE, then just check and call him all the way down.
If he has an ace he beats you anyway and there's no way that type of player would throw away any ace, even ace rag.
On the other hand, if he doesn't have you beat, he will try to keep betting anyway- so why not let him dust his chips off to you.
But there's no way you can be fancy against a maniac without holding the goods. You'll just be costing yourself too much money. And remember, don't let someone like that throw you off your game- it's very easy to go on tilt when a bad, loose player keeps beating you. Relax, take a break, and play your best game-always using your head to make sound and profitable decisions.
Better luck to you.

4 POKER
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Re: Blind Stealer, JLenart, 24. Apr 2003 09:52
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Actually wouldn't have classified this guy as a maniac. He was a pretty solid player, aggressive. He had an enormous stack in front of him. Maybe he was waiting for a seat at a higher limit game because his stack was easily 5 or 10 times more than the next largets stack. he wasn't raking that many pots and was about even for the amount of time i was at the table. I just think he had me pegged as a very tight player or even as a calling station.

I actually was tilting a bit after the incident but got it under control and left the game up a bit. I had a better game going at the feed in table I had been at previously but I was OK at this table too.

Thanks for the positive feedback.
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Re: Blind Stealer, 4 POKER, 24. Apr 2003 10:10
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Ok, but even if this player wasn't a maniac, if he holds an ace he beats you.
That's why I'm saying if a player is aggresive, loose, whatever, let him dust his chips off- you can make more money sometimes by just checking and calling. If you get aggresive with the 2 QQ's and he has an ace, you will be costing yourself extra bets. If he can't beat the 2 QQ's, why raise him, he will fold alot of the times when he would have continued to bet if you just checked and called-yielding you a bigger profit. You said he was a solid player, right? Well a solid player is not going to pay you off when they're beat so let him think that his hand is good and get the extra bets from him that way. (many players use the "check and call" type of betting to make money, not to lose money. Think of it as being quietly aggresive).
It's fine if you want to get aggresive yourself and show him that you can't be pushed around but once that Ace hits the board, back off. I would have chosen to just check and call.
It's also good to hear that you realized you were tilting a little bit and took that all important break, and then left the game.
That shows tremendous discipline and you should be proud of yourself for doing just that. That may even be more important then the way you played your 2 QQ's...think about it.

4 POKER
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Re: Blind Stealer, shorn, 25. Apr 2003 05:05
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J-

One thing to add (since a lot of the good ideas have already been expressed) is that your re-raise out of the blind tells him that you can't always be run over. That alone should get him to think twice before stealing with marginal hands in the future (if he is paying attention at all). So, IMHO you don't need to put any more $$ into the pot after that to have made your point. As 4POKER points out, if you think your hand is good even when the Ace flops, then check/call all the way. Otherwise, if he has an Ace in this situation, you are throwing away money that you don't need too.

Good luck.

Steve
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Re: Blind Stealer, Paul Stine, 25. Apr 2003 13:13
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on 25. Apr 2003 05:05 shorn wrote:
> J-
>
> One thing to add (since a lot of the good ideas have already been expressed) is that your
> re-raise out of the blind tells him that you can't always be run over. That alone should get
> him to think twice before stealing with marginal hands in the future (if he is paying attention
> at all). So, IMHO you don't need to put any more $$ into the pot after that to have made your
> point. As 4POKER points out, if you think your hand is good even when the Ace flops, then
> check/call all the way. Otherwise, if he has an Ace in this situation, you are throwing away
> money that you don't need too.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Steve

I think that in this situation it is imperative to put the money in and have the hands showdown. We are talking two big bets vs a night-time (or even lifetime) of steals from this guy.

I think that calling it down here will make money in the long run.

Paul Stine
College Station, TX
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Re: Blind Stealer- Paul Stine, shorn, 28. Apr 2003 09:42
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Paul-

I don't agree that you need to showdown your hand here to stop the guy from stealing with impunity. The mere fact that you have now shown him that you will 3-bet (whether appropriate for your holding or not) should give him or her pause before trying to steal again with a marginal holding. If he continues to try it anyway, then as stdioh points out, why waste 5 BB's to "prove your point" on a hand that you are expected to 3-bet with anyway? I would rather muck my QQ when the Ace hits and wait until I have to goods to invest that kind of $$. Let him continue to do his thing (since calling him down with your Queens and losing will only reinforce the fact that you are letting it get personal) and lay in the weeds to punish him later.

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Re: Blind Stealer, noiseboy, 24. Apr 2003 10:14
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Good point about when the A falls, one of the favorite steal hands aggressive players have is Ax, suited or not. When nobody comes in front, sometimes an aggressive player will just decide to come after you in the blinds. So you have to be more careful when an A falls then when a K falls, if you are on QQ's. If you have JJ's you are more afraid of an A than a K, and slightly more afraid of a K than a Q, because sometimes people will come after you with K-marginal kicker as well.

You probably won't fold your QQ's against a possible/probable steal raise, but you don't want to be betting into the overcard. Just hang around and hope for a favorable showdown, and if you lose, at least you've shown you are not weak.
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Re: Blind Stealer, JLenart, 24. Apr 2003 10:17
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So it seems that other than a bad play after the flop I played this had about right by checking and calling out to the river.

Gotcha,

Thanks guys
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Re: Blind Stealer, JunglingS, 24. Apr 2003 10:26
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I agree that you probabally made the right play here, but make sure your intent prior to losing the hand was to show him that you aren't weak. I've caught myself a few times thinking about my "advertising play" only to realize that it was actually just trying to justify a poorly played hand.
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Re: Blind Stealer, Andrew Wells, 24. Apr 2003 10:20
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It is okay to try and send a message by reraising out of your big blind, and I would certainly have done this with your QQ. The problem is with premium hands that it doesn't usually send the message "don't mess with my big blind", because you are expected to three bet such a hand. What you have to do is also call more often when it is heads-up or when the small blind has also called. Play a hand like medium one-gap or suited cards. You're not playing these for their draw potential, although such a fortunate accident is also possible. You're looking to catch a pair without the other two cards being ten or higher, even bottom pair. Now you bet into him on the flop, and he raises. Call if you can pick up a backdoor flush or openended straight draw on the turn along with your ordinary five outs. Call if the board has two suited cards that can't help you. Fire again on the turn if a blank or the third suited card hits, and sometimes checkraise if you improve to two pairs or trips. If you get raised again and still have just one pair, simply pick up your cards and look at them so that the players next to you can see what they are, and muck. The psychology of the outright stealer is such that he will want to know what you had; so noticing that you gave information to the other players, he will often make the dealer show the hand. Now that sends a real message because you are seen to defend your blind with trash. It's the trash card players that he doesn't want to be outright stealing against, and when he see's that 75o he'll go back to just normal semisteals with hands of appropriate value. If he doesn't ask to see your cards the first time you do this and have to fold, the next time you have to muck just throw them face up.
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Re: Blind Stealer, JLenart, 24. Apr 2003 10:25
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Now thats great advice. I love it! Thanks

I'm sure glad I don't play against you guys....:-)
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Re: Blind Stealer, flintsword, 26. Apr 2003 13:45
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on 24. Apr 2003 10:20 Andrew Wells wrote:
> It is okay to try and send a message by reraising out of your big blind, and I would
> certainly have done this with your QQ. The problem is with premium hands that it
> doesn't usually send the message "don't mess with my big blind", because you are
> expected to three bet such a hand. What you have to do is also call more often when
> it is heads-up or when the small blind has also called. Play a hand like medium
> one-gap or suited cards. You're not playing these for their draw potential, although
> such a fortunate accident is also possible. You're looking to catch a pair without
> the other two cards being ten or higher, even bottom pair. Now you bet into him on
> the flop, and he raises. Call if you can pick up a backdoor flush or openended
> straight draw on the turn along with your ordinary five outs. Call if the board has
> two suited cards that can't help you. Fire again on the turn if a blank or the third
> suited card hits, and sometimes checkraise if you improve to two pairs or trips. If
> you get raised again and still have just one pair, simply pick up your cards and look
> at them so that the players next to you can see what they are, and muck. The
> psychology of the outright stealer is such that he will want to know what you had; so
> noticing that you gave information to the other players, he will often make the
> dealer show the hand. Now that sends a real message because you are seen to defend
> your blind with trash. It's the trash card players that he doesn't want to be
> outright stealing against, and when he see's that 75o he'll go back to just normal
> semisteals with hands of appropriate value. If he doesn't ask to see your cards the
> first time you do this and have to fold, the next time you have to muck just throw
> them face up.
I agree with JLenart, that is great practical advice!
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Re: Blind Stealer, mroban, 24. Apr 2003 14:42
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I think you did the right thing. I will generally come back over the top with rags if I think I have to make a stand. Perhaps playing it all the way to the river was excessive though once you had him on A-Q (which I assumed he had after your description of his play on the turn. he could have missed he flop and still bet it out).

But since he didn't raise your blinds again you obviously did the right thing. I find that spending one extra small bet coming over the top puts a chilling effect on blind stealing.

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Re: Blind Stealer, flintsword, 26. Apr 2003 13:42
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Boy, your post attracted a lot of replies. Very interesting ideas and comments, thanks for posting it!

Material to your post is Mason Malmuth's article in the May 10th issue of Cardplayer (Vol. 15/No. 10) titled: "Unexploitable Strategy". The gist of the article is that even a surface bad play is good if it establishes a table image that you will not be run over. Quoting his book "Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players", he advocates a loose call every once in a while so that you do not get tagged as a "folder". The point is that once identified as a "folder", everyone will try and run you over and predictable players get tricky." The article is worth a read, as are most of Malmuth's articles.

Hope this is of interest and furthers your investigation.

flintsword
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Re: Blind Stealer, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 09:28
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When an opponent is doing something bad, you want to let them keep doing it. If he is raising his button too much you want to wait until you have a strong hand and then punish him. Your queens were perfect for that, but when the ace came and he bet out the queens were not worth the plastic they were printed on. Throw that crap away and hurt him later. You can't play a positive game if you throw away 5 big bets in order to change the actions of one player at the table.
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