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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:46:37 PM PACIFIC |
 Pennies and Nickles, DoctaJones, 24. Apr 2003 00:17 | ||
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| I want to say thank you to everyone who gave me feedback on my position question a week or two back. Now, I've got another one for you. I've been playing at the low limits for a while now trying to improve my game and build my bankroll to move up to higher limits. However, I find myself getting frusterated by people who call all the way through with nothing only to outdraw me by the river. My pkt A's get busted by 37o when the river brings that last straight card to use the latest example. So here's my question. Is the fact that I've been losing, even when only starting with the best hands, an indication of my poor play, or at other's willingness to spend four cents to see their cards all the way to the river? | ||
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| Re: Pennies and Nickles, Schuster, 24. Apr 2003 01:19 | ||
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| Aces get cracked by idiots, it sure happens. I got mine cracked about 30 minutes ago by some fool playing K3 offsuit. You curse a little at first, but then you realize all the times that they are calling your preflop raises with hands like that. This is where you make your money. If bad cards NEVER won, people would figure out not to play them. Those bad cards DO have a small chance of winning, and people are more than willing to gamble. Also, when you are playing against 9 other people that refuse to fold with hands like AA, almost any card in the deck will beat you on the river by making someone two pair, trips, or better. It's frustrating, but it happens. My advice is to look for hands that play better against a lot of people. Big pocket pairs go down in value because they do not hold up on their own as often when everyone is drawing to whatever random crap they have. Drawing hands like suited connectors go up in value, because when you flop a good hand people will continue to pay even if they are drawing dead or nearly dead. Of course, don't muck your AA preflop just because it isn't a good drawing hand. Just be careful to lay them down when necessary. I'm not an expert, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of players lost a lot more money than they should on big pairs when they are beaten, thus making your EV when playing these big pairs go way down. Some people will call the whole way to the river with them, especially when they are still an overpair. I made Queens full of 9's in a game earlier tonight and one guy insisted on calling 4 bets on the river with pocket jacks. I wasn't complaining. I believe it was Doyle Brunson that said that the trick to playing big pairs is to EXPECT them to get beaten about half the time. Once you master when to lay down your big pairs and when to keep them, you will improve your bottom line a lot. Just be CERTAIN that you're making a good laydown, since being wrong will cost you the entire pot. Also, if possible, play in a higher limit game. I've found the 0.50/1.00 games are much more well behaved on average. If you're playing solid ABC poker, there will be plenty of fish to keep you winning, and enough reasonable players to fold their 3-7o before the flop that you won't constantly get drawn out on. Good luck! Lee | ||
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| Re: Pennies and Nickles, john ray, 24. Apr 2003 05:39 | ||
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| I agree. In addition I try to play in games that include not more than 3 of these guys as I too have a problem w/ a table full of them. Probably for the same reason -not playing enough drawing hands .50-1 and 1-2 seem to fit me. If I find myself in a game you describe and have trouble i leave. John | ||
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| I disagree with one point, Easy E, 24. Apr 2003 06:43 | ||
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| "Big pocket pairs go down in value because they do not hold up on their own as often when everyone is drawing to whatever random crap they have" So what? You make a lot more money when they DO hold up, and a lot more when they flop a set than you normally would make. Variance goes WAY up and you have to be able to dump them on the flop with a lot of action, but I don't think the standard statement "big pairs lose value" is correct. Now, big CARDS that are NOT pairs DEFINATELY go way down in value, as to high card value. | ||
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| Re: Pennies and Nickles, 4 POKER, 24. Apr 2003 12:52 | ||
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| If your pocket AA's always held up then what kind of game would that be? Noone would be calling with less then a premium starting hand. Poker takes skill but there is a tremendous amount of luck to the game... that's why so many people play it! However, if you play solid starting hands and get a good "read" on your opponents and play the game with understanding and discipline, the pennies and nickels will definitely come your way. Not all the time, that would be impossible- it's the long run I'm talking about, and that is what poker is. A long continuous game. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pennies and Nickles, NiceFella, 25. Apr 2003 21:09 | ||
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| I hate to break this to you, but the games where there's always someone willing to call you to the river is the most profitable sort of poker game. Yes, it will seem like your aces are always getting cracked, but when you finally get the nut flush and check-raise the river you'll get two foolish callers and drag an enormous pot.. It's possible if you haven't been playing long that you've just been unlucky. Because the pots are huge, your end results can be dramatically affected buy just a few instances of bad luck. HOWEVER, if you keep playing and don't start having some big winning sessions then you need to look closely at your game. Watch your pot odds, and don't chase unless you have an excellent hand and excellent pot odds. You'll need the nuts or close to it to drag a pot in a loose game. Raise aggressively whenever you are sure you have the best hand at the moment. I know many low-limit players who are afraid to raise becuase "the idiots going to call and suck out on my anyway". That is incorrect logic. Don't get emotional. This is really hard to do when morons are sucking out on you all the time. Don't get loose. Don't bet aggressively out of frustration. If your aces get cracked and you feel yourself wanting to open raise the next hand with A7o, it's time to walk away. Patience pays. Epic, unflappable patience is the key requirement in no foldem hodlem. Don't start playing like your weak opposition. Keep plugging away, keep reading, keep studying, and good luck. | ||
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| Re: Pennies and Nickles, stdioh, 28. Apr 2003 09:07 | ||
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| If pocket aces always held up, then you wouldn't need to play any other hand. You may be suffering from the effect of "schooling" ... if too many players are calling with garbage then they give eachother pot odds to do so. All of a sudden drawing hands are worth a lot more than big made hands. Your AA is still great, but a lot less great since the chance of one pair winning goes way down. You've got three outs to trips and you *might* be lucky and win if the board pairs, but basically you're not the shoe in that you would be at a tighter table. To beat a table like this you need to be playing sub-optimal starting hands more often. Suited connectors and suited one-gappers become big hands to play here. | ||
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