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Server Time: 8/29/2008 12:12:37 PM PACIFIC |
 Outright theft in the cardroom., stdioh, 21. Apr 2003 15:03 | ||
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| It seems that every time I play a session something takes me by surprise. There are a lot of shady characters in every cardroom, so the following doesn't seem too strange...it was the reaction that surprised me. I was sitting in my regular 10-20 on Good Friday - put in a disgusting 17 hour session that did not go as well as it could have. Needless to say, early on there was a giant fish just clobbering all the competent players at my table. When he left with almost $2000 (and those should be my cheques dammit!) I went straight to the table change list out for fresh blood. Before he left, however, I noticed something strange. I was chatting idly with the player on my left. We were both flabbergasted when the fish hit his 4 on the river after pairing his deuce on the flop and made off with a hefty pot, his fourth in the session fee made that way (we measure time in 30 minute sessions since that's how often we pay session fee). We were both running cold at the moment and mucking almost all our hands and there wasn't much in the way of fresh and exciting play going on - just good players trying to exsanguinate the fish and beaing beaten only by his heavy and blunt stupidity. Then the following occured. The fish was in a hand with my new aquaintance, who played there a lot, but I hadn't spoken with until this day, and it was apparent that my buddy on the left had the nuts. The fish must have actually had something of a hand because he three-bet the flop and called the 4-bet. Now on the turn, instead of throwing in 4 red cheques for a call (and he had plenty of red cheques in front of him), he tossed in one black cheque. The dealer made change and gave it back to him - standard practice. The dealers change the chip, give it back, and the player *then* puts in his bet, which must be a call unless he specified that he was raising (standard one-chip call rule). Now the player took the whole hundred in red cheques back and didn't put anymore in and the dealer didn't notice and scooped the pot together. I'm not normally one to stick my nose into the affairs of others and only tend to offer a comment during a cardroom controversy if a) the floorperson directly has a question for me, or b) I think I can speed up the resolution and get the next hand dealt ASAP - which is rare - more people talking almost always slows things down. Thus I didn't feel I needed to raise my voice here. However I did say to my new pal, "He didn't pay that bet in - he owes the pot $20." The hand concluded and my pal dragged the sizeable pot. I said again, "You know that he shorted the pot?" to which the guy responded, "Meh. I don't care. It's only $20." Only $20! That's a whole big bet! That's an hour's work! And this guy is a good player - certainly on par with me if not (more likely) better. Why would he not care about the $20. This was an obvious place to make a statement. Now you could argue that he would let the guy steal from him in order to avoid letting him leave with all of the money - keep him happy and playing in the game, but I don't buy it - that just doesn't fly. I really do believe that this guy just didn't care about the money. Is it possible that he's too wealthy to care about $20 and that, for him, the chips really are just for keeping score? Well, I hope so. Nonetheless, I was really surprised. And if there is a lesson to be had here, it is this: Keep your eyes on your opponents and make sure that they are putting enough money in. If you pipe up once in a while to make sure you're getting your due, people will be less likely to shoot angles at you. I know that if I were an angleshooter of any kind, this guy would be my next target as I'd know that he would just not care even if he did notice something. Dealers make mistakes all the time and if you don't watch then these mistakes will only hurt you - they will never help. | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., Mojo702, 21. Apr 2003 15:37 | ||
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| What got to you more: the dealer making a mistake (him/her being human and all) or the fact that your new friend didn't care? And it seems to me that the dealer actually errored in the fish's favor. And I'm not so sure it was "outright" theft. The dealer plainly made a mistake. Perhaps the fish thought the dealer was giving change minus what was needed for the pot, and apparently no one else caught it or if they did, were like you and didn't "want to get involved" unless specifically asked. How many of you would have said something? If you were in the fish's position, (ie. "I shorted the pot")? If you were in stdioh's position? The pot winner's position? | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., 4 POKER, 21. Apr 2003 16:25 | ||
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| I don't care who made the mistake and for what reasons- If I see anybody short-changing the pot, then I will say something myself. I definitely agree with stdioh.It is your duty to call ALL attention to things that are not correct. You may not want to and feel that you don't want to butt in, but as long as you're a player in that game, and the dealer happens to overlook something, then you should point it out immediately. It doesn't matter if the guy's a fish or if it's someone who you like or dislike- there are way too many angle-shooters out there and why let them get away with it here? An honest mistake?... ok, then if that is the case, then that person shouldn't even mind if the error is called to his attention. I've heard of so many shady people taking other players chips right of the table, in fact about seven years ago, I was sitting at the table while the dealer was coloring up my chips. She gave me five black($100) chips so I wouldn't need to carry a whole rack of chips to the cashier's window. When I got up to put my jacket on, I turned around, looked down at my chips and one was missing. Someone at the table actually stole a hundred dollar chip from me from the time it took me to turn around and get my jacket...pretty scarey don't you think? I looked all over for it and I even got security to check out our table to see if anything was caught on tape, but of course, as usual, the game that I was at was not filmed.(they usually tend to put camera's on at games where the limits are high). To this day if I see anything fishy at all, I will bring it to the dealer's attention- I don't care who it is.(and I would never have to worry about it being someone that I hung out with for I don't associate myself with slimes of any kind! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., Mojo702, 21. Apr 2003 17:53 | ||
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| I agree that someone should have said something to the DEALER. | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., 4 POKER, 21. Apr 2003 20:40 | ||
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| On 21. Apr 2003 17:53 Mojo702 wrote: > I agree that someone should have said something to the DEALER. Agreed, and I would have said something BEFORE the hand was over. I just think that stdioh was in a tough spot because he just recently met this guy and was trying not to call to much attention to this problem if he didn't have to, that's all. I just find it hard to believe that the winner of that hand didn't care one bit about the other guy not putting in the $20. It's a matter of principle of what is right-it's not so much the $20, if someone made an honest mistake(and we all do), that's fine, but once stdioh told the man about it, he should have taken charge of the situation. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., Tommy waggoner, 22. Apr 2003 03:50 | ||
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| Another situation to watch for are sidepots. There are alot of inexperienced dealers and even experienced dealers who screw up sidepots, I've seen it time and time again. I have also noticed that dealers tend to be sloppier when they work in casinos where they have to split their tokes with all of the dealers, which is quite common in the midwest. You also tend to find alot of the angle shooters in these places, cause they know that the quality of some of the dealers are poor. I know of a few dealers that have to get the help of the players when making multiple sidepots. Just last week, I got stuck with the BB twiced, because the dealer didn't know where the button went. I know, that I should have realized it, but it isn't really my job to move the button. | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., shorn, 22. Apr 2003 06:36 | ||
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| I agree that something should have been said to the dealer and that the fish may not have noticed the mistake, assuming the dealer would parse out the change from the call. Not all players pay as close attention to making change. My thoughts are to point out something that looks wrong right away, even if I end up being wrong. All players need to be cops at the table. | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., stdioh, 22. Apr 2003 07:22 | ||
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| I figure it like this. Indeed, something *should* have been said to the dealer. I told the guy who's money it was and he *chose* not to do anything about it. At that point, it is nolonger my bailiwick. As for the fish not noticing, I'm fairly sure that he did notice. My reads are good and it wasn't hard to see that he realized a mistake had been made and was hoping nobody would notice...he looked like a 5 year old who just stole a cookie. One interesting thing has dawned on me. Back in my blackjack days, it was very common for a dealer to read a 6 as a 9 from time to time (and you see this happen a tonne when you play a lot) and accidentally pay you when she should be taking your bet from the table. In those days I had no moral issues with letting the chips come to me and considering mistakes made by the house as part of my edge. In the world of poker, however, it is nolonger you vs. the house, but you vs. the other players and the morality of it changes entirely. I find it morally much worse to profit from a dealer mistake when the money comes from another player and I couldn't do it. I want to profit at the house's expense from the house's mistakes or at the player's expense form his own mistakes. Let him call with 27o and let me make my money that way. | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., 4 POKER, 22. Apr 2003 14:55 | ||
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| On 22. Apr 2003 03:50 Tommy waggoner wrote: > Another situation to watch for are sidepots. There are a lot of inexperienced dealers and even experienced > dealers who screw up sidepots, I've seen it time and time again. I have also noticed that dealers tend to > be sloppier when they work in casinos where they have to split their tokes with all of the dealers, which > is quite common in the midwest. You also tend to find a lot of the angle shooters in these places, cause > they know that the quality of some of the dealers are poor. I know of a few dealers that have to get the > help of the players when making multiple sidepots. Just last week, I got stuck with the BB twiced, > because the dealer didn't know where the button went. I know, that I should have realized it, but it > isn't really my job to move the button. Here's another form of angleshooting, or should I call it cheating? I play a lot of seven card stud 8 or better. When the hand goes heads up, instead of the two players putting their bets in the middle of the table, they keep their bets right in front of them because many times the pot just gets split in half anyway- this makes it easier on the dealer because he doesn't have to break down the pot now. It also speeds up the game, However... I have noticed several players shortchange the pot. Yes the bets were left in front of them but instead of putting in the full bet, they would put in half the bet or take a bet out. When you have the bets in front of you it's very easy to maneuver a chip, the dealers really aren't paying that close attention to what's going on half the time and if you're involved in a heads up pot then even you are not watching if the other player is putting in the right amount- hey, why would you even think that he wasn't ? Well, it has happened to me in this game as well as to others who play, and I never thought that someone would have the audacity to even try such a thing... But they do. Well I caught someone doing this while I was in the hand with him, and all I will say is, he never did it again... 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., stdioh, 22. Apr 2003 15:01 | ||
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| How about this one? In a Hi-Lo split game the angleshooter just got quartered, so he takes the bet in front of him and puts it back in his stack, then lets the other player do the same and lets the dealer figure out the split of the pot. Most players are so conditioned into taking that last bet back that they don't think about the money they are losing. And again, something I would bring to the attention of the winning player and let him correct it. | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., stdioh, 22. Apr 2003 07:15 | ||
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| A little while ago, somebody sat down in a seat in my local cardroom, coloured up the cheques that where there, and walked off with them. Then the player who was actually sitting there came back from his cigarette and asked what happened to his money. They got the guy in the parking lot, but the damage was done. The player who lost his chips was a wonderful highrolling fish and even a nice guy to boot. I *loved* playing with this guy because he was terrible, he could afford to lose the money, and he was fun to talk to...the kind of recreational player that makes the poker world go round. When these sleezes know they can't get away with crap they won't try it and the nice fish won't get scared off. | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., Mojo702, 22. Apr 2003 14:23 | ||
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| on 22. Apr 2003 07:15 stdioh wrote: > When these sleezes know they can't get away with crap they > won't try it and the nice fish won't get scared off. But didn't you let the sleaze get away with not putting in his $20? | ||
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| Re: Outright theft in the cardroom., stdioh, 22. Apr 2003 14:36 | ||
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| I think I did all that I could. I let the player losing the money know and he chose not to pursue it. For me to lobby for him to get money against his wishes would slow down the game for the players not involved. If he wants to give his money away there isn't anything I can do to stop him. | ||
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