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Server Time: 9/6/2008 4:43:15 PM PACIFIC |
 Pocket Aces, Cade, 21. Apr 2003 08:21 | ||
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| I want you guys' feedback on what I did and what you might do different. OK, Playing a NLHE home game. I'm the SB. I get Pocket Aces. Its a seven handed game. The BB is raised, two fold and I call. Now there's 5 players. Flop is pretty much all rags but 2 are diamonds. I check, hoping to check raise, but it check all the way around the table, and then my 3rd Ace comes out, but its a diamond. Normally I would play slow with most of these guys and sucker some money out of them, but honestly I'm worrying about one of them drawing out on me and getting the nut flush. So, I bet into them big to protect my hand. They all folded and I took the pot there. I don't think I did the wrong thing. I would just rather get a lot more out of three aces. Thank you for your replies in advance. | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, shorn, 21. Apr 2003 08:32 | ||
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| As I have recently learned in NL, with big hands you need to raise pre-flop to limit the field. I would have raised preflop to try and get it down to one or two folks. Then, with two diamonds on the flop, I would have bet out to make any draws pay for the opportunity. I agree with coming out again when your Ace hit, but it was dangerous as someone else might have already hit the flush. Anyway, I am a relative newcomer to NL so there are probably more qualified opinions out there. However, in my limited time playing, I have been burned more than once slowplaying a big hand. | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, noiseboy, 21. Apr 2003 08:47 | ||
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| I would say you should have put in a decent sized raise before the flop. The AA's are a big hand, but you are taking a big chance of letting too many people in with smaller hands. However, if you raise and all of them still call, that's ok too, you have the best hand and will win more than your fair share, you just have to be more careful with more players. You say that the board was "pretty much rags" but with five players in cheap, there is a good chance that somebody could've hit two pair or some random straight draw. At this point you need to put a fairly large bet in, because once those two diamonds are on the flop, you need to make it too expensive for the draw to be correct in calling. Once the third diamond is out there, I think you should probably still bet your set of AA's, but if somebody comes over you, you should probably fold, if the raise comes from a good player. Or you could call and say a silent prayer to the poker gods that the board pairs or another beautiful A falls on the river. I'm MUCH more experienced at limit than NL, so take what I say with a grain of salt, maybe even two grains. Good Luck, no limit is hard! | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, stdioh, 21. Apr 2003 10:14 | ||
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| I think that you played this hand wrong the whole way. You should be raising your aces preflop unless you are pretty sure that you will end up stealing the blinds with them. Get money in the pot while you have the best of it. On the flop you should be betting out for fear of giving a free card to a flush draw. Don't get fancy - make people pay for their draws. A checkraise is only appropriate here if you've got a player on the end who will *always* bet and you know that it'll work. Then it is great to fold people off their draws. On the turn the ace of diamonds hurts you. You didn't have any action before so chances are that you were winning with your overpair in the first place. Now a flush has you beat and you're drawing for a tight. Now it is too late. If you bet out and get raised, what do you do? You're not going to fold somebody odd a nut flush draw here - probably not off a second nut flush draw either...and there are going to be lots of chasers. You were very lucky that everybody folded to your bet. This is a pretty classic example of "playing backwards" ... you're slowplaying when you have the best of it and then putting money in when you're very possibly beat. Don't get too fancy. | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, Paul Stine, 21. Apr 2003 12:03 | ||
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| An English pro named Paul Parker once asked me, "Do you know that you check when you are ahead and bet when you are behind?" I don't do that anymore. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Agreed, another option, jdsalinger, 22. Apr 2003 01:17 | ||
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| you said the BB was raised, well if someone UTG or early raised it and a couple called when it got around to you can always think of going all in or betting a large amount here and then a large amount if a favorable flop comes for you. There is more than just the blinds in there now and if I can win outright I always like those odds. :) Plus if it goes to showdown it sets you up for a decent sized steal sometime in the future. I like playing AA this way especially early in a session. | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, ice, 21. Apr 2003 21:12 | ||
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| I agree with stdioh, that you played the hand backwards, trying to get too fancy. and its good that you've gotten a lot of thought on how to play a similar situation again in the future, but hey... I never complain if I raise preflop with American Airlines and everyone folds..., at least I won the antes/blinds. I try not to get frustrated when I think I should get more value out of my big pocket pairs and I don't. (it would be stupid to go on tilt for a pety thing like that) dragging a pot is dragging a pot... if you won, you won the pot. Just make sure you don't rely on the wrong tactics, and do the drawkcab thing again. | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, stdioh, 22. Apr 2003 07:07 | ||
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| I'm happy as a clam if I can steal the blinds with AJo, but aces have *so much* equity in them...on average you should make 4 or 5 times the blinds with aces. Thus it is something of a travesty when the accidentally steal the blinds. Nonetheless, it happens all the time. | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, chasepoker, 22. Apr 2003 03:15 | ||
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| Raise the pot on he flop, raise 200% of the pot ( or more ) on the flop and then slow down if you get a caller and the turn comes a 'd'. AA in NLimit is just made to lose you a stack or win you a little. Of course it depends on your table if everyone calls too much then you milk a little out of it but if your table " knows " No Limit bet heavy and early ! | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces in NL: Slowplay, flintsword, 24. Apr 2003 22:21 | ||
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| Am I wrong, but I seem to recall that T.J. Cloutier wrote in one of his classic practice hands "Cardinal Rule number one in No Limit Holdem is if you limp with Aces, you will never get broke with aces." It was additionally quoted in the great poker article "Fortune's Smile" (http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1111/1807_301/68018764/p5/article.jhtml?term=) This seems to be really different from the opinions here. Any comments to enlighten me? | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces in NL: Slowplay, 4 POKER, 24. Apr 2003 23:52 | ||
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| Well slowplaying is fine if that's the way you choose to play the hand. Limp in and hope to trap if you flop a monster, however the comments that we gave, were not so much for NOT raising preflop; this player limped in with intention of trapping I'm sure, then he checked the flop, and then when the turn brought the flush, he decided to bet. Total backwards play and bad play at that. And THAT is when Aces cost you a lot of money; when you just don't know what to do with them. There is no ONE right way to play AA's, I don't care whose article you read.(just think about it for one minute- do you REALLY think there is only one way to play a certain hand? There should never be a situation in poker where you say," always do this and never do that"- there's just too many facets of poker and so many things to factor in that makes, "it depends" more accurate.)Because everything DOES depend on the situation at hand. The important thing is playing the hand correctly, and betting it correctly, whether a person limps in preflop or puts in a minimal raise, the key is to not get married to the hand if the flop does not come out in your favor. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces in NL: Slowplay, Schuster, 25. Apr 2003 01:21 | ||
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| I could not have said it better myself. Too much of this depends on the quality of your opponents, your position, the action before you, and the general feel of the game. It's much more important to understand why you should make which play with which hands and when, than to have a set playbook and follow it all the time. I'm still working on it for sure! Lee | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces in NL: Slowplay, flintsword, 26. Apr 2003 23:56 | ||
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| 4 POKER, I agree 100% with the idea that many factors will influence how you play AA, and probably the most important thing is not to get married to the AA. I suppose my comment should have been heavier on "there are alternatives" rather than quoting a source as the gospel. Lately I have been laying down a lot of good hands and my earn rate has gone up. Damn if I can figure out what is happening, but no arguments from this kid! Is this phenomenon common (laydowns = increased earn rate) since it seems counter to commn sense unless bets not lost is a much bigger factor than I have realized. Many thanks for taking the time to critique my posts! I may burn, but will learn, if I am corrected aggressively. flintsword | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces in NL: Slowplay, 4 POKER, 27. Apr 2003 02:22 | ||
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| on 26. Apr 2003 23:56 flintsword wrote: > 4 POKER, I agree 100% with the idea that many factors will influence how you play AA, and probably > the most important thing is not to get married to the AA. I suppose my comment should have been > heavier on "there are alternatives" rather than quoting a source as the gospel. > > Lately I have been laying down a lot of good hands and my earn rate has gone up. Damn if I can > figure out what is happening, but no arguments from this kid! Is this phenomenon common (laydowns = > increased earn rate) since it seems counter to commn sense unless bets not lost is a much bigger > factor than I have realized. > > Many thanks for taking the time to critique my posts! I may burn, but will learn, if I am corrected > aggressively. > > flintsword Hey flintsword, Sometimes my responses come across as harsh, but I'm just trying to get you to look at a situation from a different perspective. I understand the quote you wrote in from T.J Cloutier," If you limp with Aces you can never go broke with Aces". But there are situations in poker where you should try not to be too rigid by playing and thinking only by the book. I guess that is what I was trying to say, that's all. As far as the aggresive thing goes, I guess I can't help that, That just carries over from my poker playing!! No hard feelings, ok? Dave. | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces in NL: Slowplay, flintsword, 27. Apr 2003 10:11 | ||
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| No hard feelings. Actually, I am a pretty friendly, pragmatic type of guy. Reality checks work, and you were not that harsh ... :) I can take criticism pretty well and in fact welcome it. The only road to better play in my case, so thanks and no problem. You are right. A very good poker player once said that one of the keys to playing better Poker is not what you learn, but what you unlearn. Then he said I had a lot to unlearn ... lol. I get it, and am using the forum to identify what I have to "unlearn" to play better. flintsword | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, 4 POKER, 22. Apr 2003 13:06 | ||
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| Limping in for one raise in the SB with pocket AA's? Now is your time to narrow the field. I understand that in no limit you don't want to raise an amount that will make the whole table fold;pocket AA's wants action but your hand was already raised in front of you- you must put in another raise even a small one if need be, but to let the players in behind you for free is just bad play. When you're dealt a big hand in NL, and of course two AA's is the biggest of all, you want to trap somebody and make them pay dearly, however once you made the decission to slow play your hand, you also have to be willing now to throw it away. You allowed 5 players to see the flop cheaply, you checked the flop with what could have been the best hand, and NOW when the possible flush hits on the turn you bet??? You had absolutely no money invested in this hand(and that was your fault from the beginning, sorry), so why risk your chips now when you have no idea as to where you stand? Making a mistake is fine as long as you realize it, but to compound the mistake even more is catastrophic. YOU were the player that was supposed to be trapping, instead I think you trapped yourself- regardless of the outcome. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pocket Aces, stdioh, 23. Apr 2003 07:26 | ||
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| Couldn't have said it better myself. | ||
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