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3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, jdsalinger, 18. Apr 2003 18:57 | ||
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| don't get me wrong paradise is the best place to play. But now every time I reach 2500 I withdraw 2000. Three times I have done this and after each time I suddenly have a very bad losing streak, that requires me to replenish the account. I mean 2 outers heads up are hit one after another. Has anybody experience anything similar? | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, Andrew Wells, 18. Apr 2003 19:05 | ||
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| Yes I have too. This has been discussed several times on this forum in the past. Various explainations have been offered. Try using the search function here with Paradise or Cashout Freeroll Syndrome in the message body. These threads may or may not have been selected for the archive though. | ||
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past threads are no longer present, jdsalinger, 18. Apr 2003 20:52 | ||
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| search to no avail. If someone could give a recap of what past people have thought that would be great | ||
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Re: past threads are no longer present, Andrew Wells, 18. Apr 2003 21:48 | ||
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| Some have dismissed these results as venting from losing players. Others have explained how statistical anomalies are likely to occur. The general consensus is that it is not worthwhile for a site operator to put at risk a large revenue stream just to stick it to certain players. You have the same approach I took, that is to cash out in excess of the original buy-in and play through the suck-out phase - then repeat the process again. My personal opinion is that regardless of whether this cashout freeroll syndrome is psychological or software related, that it can be overcome. Since one can not examine the software source code, it is not possible to determine if the programmers enhanced the product to punish players that cash out. This can only continue to be debated, as no one has offered any hard evidence. Therefore the statistical certainty of bad runs is the preferred explaination, while other theories of collusion, conspiracy, tampering, or fraud remain unsubstantiated allegations. I know what I experienced and you are not alone, others have expressed similar results. The common thread being the unusual losing period after a withdrawal. I don't play there anymore, and that's the only advice that matters. | ||
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where do you play now?, jdsalinger, 18. Apr 2003 22:51 | ||
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| if you no longer play there now I assume it is because you have some doubts. where do you play now? | ||
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Re: where do you play now?, Andrew Wells, 19. Apr 2003 09:09 | ||
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| I don't play very much on-line these days. Planet Poker for sure, and more recently at Poker Club. | ||
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Re: where do you play now?, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 10:00 | ||
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| How can you stand Planet Poker's clunky software?? It's like a limping nash ramber cf paradise and pro poker's jaguars. | ||
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Re: where do you play now?, Andrew Wells, 19. Apr 2003 10:13 | ||
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| I can stand it because I played with them first, and longest. I know how all the regulars play. I'm very loyal to that which I like. I respect Roy Cooke's involvement as a pro and card room manager. | ||
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Re: Re: loyalty and Roy, Poker Crone, 21. Apr 2003 21:40 | ||
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| on 19. Apr 2003 10:13 Andrew Wells wrote: > I can stand it because I played with them first, and longest. I know how all the regulars play. I'm very loyal to > that which I like. I respect Roy Cooke's involvement as a pro and card room manager. Crone responds: Makes sense to me. I'm going to try again, try to put up with it, cuz i trust it and respect Roy. | ||
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Re: past threads are no longer present, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 07:18 | ||
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| Why is it called cashout freeroll syndrome? i don't get the freeroll part. also please see my posting today in response to original question -- i'm poker crone -- any thoughts in response? | ||
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Re: past threads are no longer present, Andrew Wells, 19. Apr 2003 09:14 | ||
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| When you cash out for more than your original buy-in, the remaining bankroll is all profit. "Freeroll" alludes to the possibility that one subconsiously treats the leftover amount less seriously. | ||
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Re: past threads are no longer present, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 10:01 | ||
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| Thanks! I have figured out it means, in tournament play, that you get to play for no buy in -- it's use in this contect confused me. | ||
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Re: past threads are no longer present, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 07:26 | ||
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| Re: the casinos putting at rist their "large revenue stream" -- Pro Poker has same software as Paradise, (and I love their software, eg compared to Planet Poker -- see my first response to the initital question posted) but very few players at Pro P -- yet, altho few players and therefore low rake, they give fantastic deposit bonuses (over 100%) and great "pay to play points" that add over a dollar to the value of every hand played - how the heck can they afford it? And why can't I win there overall, at any level, when I can consistently win at $9/18-limit hold em in casinos? Whenever I get ahead at Pro P I start losing badly. Paradise too. I've analyzed my play (gotten the print-outs) and the quality of my play has NOT changed. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, chasepoker, 19. Apr 2003 02:59 | ||
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| Ditto same thing happend to me i put it down to being overconfident and having a smaller bankroll than necessary, that HAS to be the truth as surely someone would pick up n the statistics of losing after a cash out what with poker tracker etc .. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, 4 POKER, 19. Apr 2003 06:52 | ||
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| I have played on many sites and I will say this, Paradise poker is the ONLY site that I felt this way about...sorry but I don't play there anymore. I've also spoke to some of my friends and we were all in agreement about this coincidence, if you will. If you feel that maybe something isn't right, it wouldn't hurt to try another site, there's plenty of them out there. Why have mixed signals when it comes to YOUR MONEY??? JUST MY OPINION... 4 POKER | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, jdsalinger, 19. Apr 2003 08:04 | ||
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| I too hate to agree with you because there is no site that offers a better selection of games. But I've talked to many solid players who have had this happen to them and even in a B&M games where I've struck up this conversation I get the same response. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, 4 POKER, 19. Apr 2003 08:37 | ||
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| on 19. Apr 2003 08:04 jdsalinger wrote: > I too hate to agree with you because there is no site that offers a better selection of > games. But I've talked to many solid players who have had this happen to them and even in > a B&M games where I've struck up this conversation I get the same response. There are PLENTY of sites to chose from that offer many different games to chose from, in fact if you're not stuck on playing just hold-em, I think there are few sites that actually provide more games and limits to chose from. I know that party poker has way more Omaha games, just as many stud and stud 8 games and just agout the same, maybe a little less of the hold-em selection. I just know that I would never play at a site where I didn't feel comfortable, that is why I don't and won't play at paradise poker... 4 POKER | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 07:15 | ||
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| Yes. Also funky things like that have happened at my other favorite site, Pro Poker. Over and over. I am starting to be very suspicious, and even though I absolutely HATE the clunkiness of Planet Poker's software (see my gripes and their response, copied below from my email correspondence with them) I am thinking of putting up with it because I DO trust them. Another solution, I think, is to play tournaments -- it's too much work for people to collude in them, over the phone, etc., for small chance of gain, and I don't think the site would bother, either. Here's my email to Planet Poker: Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 08:00 AM To: support@planetpoker.com (support@planetpoker.com) Subject: Thanks and a few gripes! Please share with management. Deborah - thanks for the deposit bonus. But man, it was a painful experience playing about 5 hours at Planet Poker last night -- what a clunky, slow site! My list of gripes is almost too long to enumerate. The biggest ones: No, or almost no, 7 card stud games at any given time. Very few hold 'em tables to choose from because so few people playing. The screen doesn't center on my computer when open it or remaximize it (NONE of my other software has that problem). Awkward, clunky player dialogue. Can't scroll back through player OR dealer dialogue. If I press button GO TO LOBBY I am always taken to the tab for High-Limit Hold-Em instead of the tab for whatever game I am playing. Annoying sounds, confusing graphics, slow software. I am used to playing at Paradise Poker and Pro Poker, and I thought, well, I'll play at Planet Poker because I respect Mike Caro and Roy Cooke, but it was like driving a funky old limping Volkswagen bug when you're used to a Mercedes. Maybe it's a vicious circle -- you can't afford to upgrade your site to their standards because you don't have enough players, and you don't have enough players because you can't afford to upgrade your site. Maybe you are spending too much money on Card Player ads. Are you aware of these problems, and how you compare to other, smoother, more full-featured sites? Do you have plans to upgrade in the NEAR future? You say people trust you -- are you saying other sites cheat in some way? I'll play again at your site, to make sure of my impressions. There is so much discrepancy between sites, and no one is talking about it in the major poker media. Or are they? I suppose Card Player magazine doesn't want to bite the hands that feed it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Planet Poker Customer Support Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 11:16 AM Subject: RE:Thanks and a few gripes! Please share with management. Thank you for taking the time to submit your comments to us. We appreciate all feedback, and many of our past upgrades have been a direct result of customer comments. Many of your comments are quite valid, and have been forwarded to the programmers for their review and consideration for future developments of the software. We have submitted many features to the developers that we would like to see incorporated in these updates - but unfortunately, at this time I do not have a expected time frame for when the upgrades will be available. We are not able to offer information regarding the other sites -- but at Planet Poker our top priority is the integrity of the games. This includes a wide range of security features, fraud controls, and collusion detection to mention but a few. We are confident that the unilateral and preemptive measures that we have taken on behalf of our customers afford the highest level of security in the industry. If you have specific concerns regarding our software, or further comments to submit, please do not hesitate to contact us. Regards, Darlene R Planet Poker Customer Support Supervisor support@planetpoker.com Phone 1-800-641-4847 (US & Canada) +599-9-733-1236 (International) 9:00 AM to 11:00 PM Eastern Time To: Planet Poker Customer Support Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: ATT: DARLENE Re: Thanks and a few gripes! Please share with management. Hi Darlene - Thanks for your prompt reply. I will,as I said, try playing at your site again, because of the respect I have for all of you and your commitment to honesty and fairness. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 07:38 | ||
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| Any other thoughts from past discussions? Wish this had been archived. Wish Card Player columnist would discuss this openly and honestly. Everyone I play with at Casinos says they just plain don't trust internet sites. The sites need to address this in more depth -- not just say they are trusted, in their ads. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, flintsword, 19. Apr 2003 08:01 | ||
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| Well, as they say, there is nothing wrong with asking the right people a direct question. I emailed ParadisePoker telling them that I have concerns about discussed abnormal play performance after a player has cashed out. I also suggested that it would be a very positive step for them to Audit the post cashout play by a firm of chartered accountants. This is easy because they already use a CA firm to audit their card shuffling routine. If they do audit, it should put the boot to the feeling that the software penalizes players who cash out. If they do not audit, we have the beginnings of a smoking gun, so to speak. Personally, I think IT IS EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that a successful site like Paradise Poker (making the kind of daily income that Paradise must be making), would take the risk of engaging in constructive fraud (a harsh but accurate term for any software that would create a unfavourable card environment outside of random dealing for selected players that cash out) . It does not make sense to me. Final thought: The card deal is random and audited by a CA firm that has a lot more to lose than Paradise in this instance. | ||
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Re: Paradise will look into it, flintsword, 19. Apr 2003 08:45 | ||
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| Fast response, .... we will see. Here it is: Hello Yves, Thank you very much for your feedback regarding the integrity of our site and your questions regarding our shuffle. Your questions have been forwarded to our Security team for review and a timely response. You will hear back from them very shortly. Thank you for your patience. Best Regards, Lisa, Paradise Poker Support | ||
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Re: Paradise will look into it, 4 POKER, 19. Apr 2003 09:11 | ||
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| on 19. Apr 2003 08:45 flintsword wrote: > Fast response, .... we will see. Here it is: > > Hello Yves, > > Thank you very much for your feedback regarding the integrity of our site and your > questions regarding our shuffle. Your questions have been forwarded to our Security team > for review and a timely response. You will hear back from them very shortly. > > Thank you for your patience. > Best Regards, > > Lisa, > Paradise Poker Support That's all well and good, they have an homest shuffling system, However, the question that was posted here was in regard to withdrawing money from the account and feeling that once a player did so he went on a very long losing streak. I'm also aware that when you did ask PP a question, they were always quick to respond with an answer that was totally unrelated to the question. I'm sorry, I think they have the worst customer service department of all the sites out there.(I'm sure this will get deleted...sorry, you just brought back bad memories).I'm not telling anyone that they shouldn't play there, I'm just voicing my opinions and the experience that I had. 4 POKER > | ||
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Re: Paradise response, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 09:52 | ||
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| Their initial response is quick because it uses key words to send a preprogrammed response. That's fair -- the key is whether they respond to the request for an audit re: cashouts. I always found their customer service very responsive. | ||
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Re: Paradise response, Daniel Horowitz, 21. Apr 2003 13:42 | ||
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| I am not a conspiracy theorist or a crazy anti online poker person but I feel I should add the same thing happend to me at paradise twice. I made large withdrawals leaving myself what I felt was plenty of money to play with and subsequently went bust and had to deposit again. Upon redepositing I immediately started winning. Kind of a bizzare pattern. | ||
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Re: Paradise response, chasepoker, 21. Apr 2003 16:05 | ||
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| As i have said elsewhere if this is the case then to make a mint all you need do is win big, cash out and then set up a new accoun - BINGO instant cash ! | ||
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Re: Auditing Firms, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 09:49 | ||
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| Who the heck trusts auditing firms after all the recent scandals??? | ||
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Re: Auditing Firms: a value to online poker?, flintsword, 19. Apr 2003 10:30 | ||
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| The last big scandal was Anderson and it pretty much broke them up. I can vouch for the fact that CA firms have substantially beefed up their due diligence and take their work - especially audit work - very seriously. Your comment is fair poker crone. My objective here is to ask them simple questions and get clear answers, because I feel that as a player on Paradise Poker, I have a right to feel secure about the card play. We will see ... :) | ||
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Re: Auditing Firms: a value to online poker?, john ray, 19. Apr 2003 10:47 | ||
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| It would definatley draw me to a site to see as much auditing as possible. I realize that won't stop all the questions but it is better than saying TRUST ME I'm a poker site. Seems that it would have to be good for the site in the long run since we hear these comments all to often. If it's honest prove it and the criticism will at least die down. John | ||
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Paradise cash out the defence, chasepoker, 19. Apr 2003 18:35 | ||
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| I still believe that everyone is being too paranoid about Paradise. Questions you must ask yourself. 1) Why would they bother when they are making so much money already. 2) How complicated must the programe that does that have to be, ie working out who is " due " to win ie when there are 3 people at the table who have all just cashed out. 3) Finaly something like that WOULD have come out by now a disgruntled ex-employee / someone doing the number crunching. I am the most synical and skeptical person in the world but i simply DO NOT believe that they cheat in the ways being mentioned ! Finaly if you truly do believe that they are doing this to you then why dont you a) cash out ALL your money when you cash out b) when you cash out simply set up a new account thus enabling you to get all the " benfits " of being a new customer ( for the flip side of all you arguments and the most valid is that where you are getting all these " bad beats " someone else is gaining off you ) Having typed the final bit then i have finaly got rid of any nagging doubts i may have had about the site. Now of course if in 6 months time the biggest scandal to hit poker does occur they are seen to be cheating then you can all laugh at me and call me an idiot :) Sorry for the long one - i suppose i should be glad that people that read this site dont play at Paradise as by merely bothering to read the views on here they are ahead of most people. Regards Chasepoker Director for consumer relations Paradise Poker Some island somewhere counting my money that i have nicked off you lot | ||
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Re: Paradise cash out the defence, 4 POKER, 19. Apr 2003 18:50 | ||
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| on 19. Apr 2003 18:35 chasepoker wrote: > I still believe that everyone is being too paranoid about Paradise. Questions you must ask yourself. > > 1) Why would they bother when they are making so much money already. > > 2) How complicated must the programe that does that have to be, ie working out who is " due " to win ie > when there are 3 people at the table who have all just cashed out. > > 3) Finaly something like that WOULD have come out by now a disgruntled ex-employee / someone doing the > number crunching. > > I am the most synical and skeptical person in the world but i simply DO NOT believe that they cheat in > the ways being mentioned ! > > Finaly if you truly do believe that they are doing this to you then why dont you a) cash out ALL your > money when you cash out b) when you cash out simply set up a new account thus enabling you to get all the > " benfits " of being a new customer ( for the flip side of all you arguments and the most valid is that > where you are getting all these " bad beats " someone else is gaining off you ) > > Having typed the final bit then i have finaly got rid of any nagging doubts i may have had about the > site. > > Now of course if in 6 months time the biggest scandal to hit poker does occur they are seen to be > cheating then you can all laugh at me and call me an idiot :) > > Sorry for the long one - i suppose i should be glad that people that read this site dont play at > Paradise as by merely bothering to read the views on here they are ahead of most people. > > Regards > Chasepoker > Director for consumer relations Paradise Poker > Some island somewhere counting my money that i have nicked off you lot ONE QUESTION CHASE, HAVE YOU BEEN TIPPING THE BOTTLE AGAIN??!!! 4 POKER > | ||
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And the start was poor, chasepoker, 19. Apr 2003 19:07 | ||
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| No just too much coffee whilst playing on line tonight, time to go to bed i reckon ! I thought my argument was quite good, ok ok apart from the last bit. PS and the middle was a bit dodgy. | ||
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Re: And the start was poor, 4 POKER, 19. Apr 2003 19:10 | ||
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| on 19. Apr 2003 19:07 chasepoker wrote: > No just too much coffee whilst playing on line tonight, time to go to bed i reckon ! I thought my argument was > quite good, ok ok apart from the last bit. > > PS and the middle was a bit dodgy. HA, HA,... You know everything is just in good fun! good-nite chase. | ||
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more odd things, jdsalinger, 19. Apr 2003 22:45 | ||
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| whoever is auditing needs to recheck. 3 out of 4 hands someone had AA at a recent table. This isn't sour grapes because I was one of them and the other hand did not go to a show down so it could have been 4 of 4. 4 times in a 5 hour span (2 tables played simul.) I saw KK vs. AA. Somehow I see it on a daily basis. And of course in a recent tournament 3 players left 1 has AK, I've got QQ and the third has JJ. Flop comes AKQ turn is a blank and the river is 10. Paradise has nothing to gain in this scenario because it is a tournament but I've still got to question the odds of this happening with only 3 players. | ||
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Re: more odd things, SendMoney, 20. Apr 2003 00:13 | ||
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| I was playing in one of those $6 buy in tournaments at Paradise poker when I had the following things happen. I'm getting short stacked and decide to bet more most of my stack pre-flop with AKo. Two other players come in and the flop is KK9 - with no flush draw. I have first action and I go all in, the player after me goes calls, and the 3rd player who was also short stacked goes all in too. The turn and river bring blanks. The other players had AA and 99. In this situation I had 1 out, the case K for quads which did not arrive. An A would have given pocket aces aces full of kings to beat my kings full of aces. A truly bizarre flop that put AK and AA to one out each vs pockets 9s. I figured anyone calling me would have had a K with a weaker kicker or at worst AK for a chop. K9 didn't seem an all-in hand, and I have to admit that 99 never even occured to me. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, Tommy waggoner, 19. Apr 2003 20:03 | ||
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| I have played online poker one time, and it was at paradise, and it was a bad experience. I was playing 8-16 holdem. I had been playing for about 3 hours, and was up and down, I was stuck a few bucks, nothing serious when this hand came up. I catch a pair of aces in middle, and raise, It goes six way action for two bets. I flop a set, and bet out, and get raised, then the unthinkable, I somehow get knocked off the system for about 5 minutes, and when I got back on, I realized that I lost the money that I had invested in that hand with way the best of it. I don't know what caused it or who is at fault, but I do know that it was and will be my last experience with online poker. I didn't really care too much for it anyways, It bored me, and it seems like it takes too much away from the game. In my opinion, poker is very much a people game, not an icon game. | ||
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I think every online has experienced that., jdsalinger, 19. Apr 2003 22:28 | ||
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| Getting disconnected is unfortunately a reality. If you are on a wireless connection all sorts of things can happen that will cause you large packet loss (and if you're on a dialup someone calling in will cause the same problem) and thus a timeout/fold. I think everybody has accidently pressed the wrong action button also. It happens and I consider this my fault. | ||
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Reply to no online due to computer outrage, flintsword, 20. Apr 2003 09:23 | ||
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| Computer outrages just happen and when you are playing for $$, the reaction is - shall we say - violent. As the online interface improves, the social interaction will become more pronounced. We are all at the infancy of a communications medium that will change this world forever. That said, for the professional that has real people-to-people reading skills, B&M casinos are the only way to go. In the same way that television did not bankrupt/replace movie theatres, ... online poker will not harm poker. In fact, if the analogy holds true, online poker will make poker grow the way real casinos could only dream of growing their poker business. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, Andrew Wells, 20. Apr 2003 17:39 | ||
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| In the early days of on-line poker I discovered that if I played with an older computer (I have five systems) such as Pentium-75 or 486-66 that when there was excessive chat, it would freeze me from acting. I think there is a disclaimer that you must have at least a Pentium system to run the software, but this does occur. Particularly when someone is already annoyed at the slow pace and holds the Z key down repetitively for the chat message box. This is because the client software handles the event of updating the chat dialog box one character at a time, and this event handling routine is higher in the loop than the handling routine for the button fields Fold, Call, Bet, and Raise. So players could actually make someone with an inferior PC time out by abusing the chat function. Also, the client software handles the seating of a new player at a higher priority than processing an existing player's action. So sometimes when two players are taking open seats at the same time, this can also cause the player who's turn it is to time out. The solution is to only use a fast computer when playing. I'd recommend nothing less than a 300 MHz. system for Internet poker. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, Poker Crone, 21. Apr 2003 21:49 | ||
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| Fascinating info! How do you know all this inner workings? I upgraded my RAM, mostly cuz i used to lose the sound effects and i need them to stay engaged. | ||
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Re: 3 times withdrew from Paradise, then a losing streak, Andrew Wells, 21. Apr 2003 22:32 | ||
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| I beta tested the original Casino CoCo which predated all of the existing Internet card rooms today. I've played off and on with Planet Poker since their first year. I have a software design background in games simulation. | ||
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