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Server Time: 9/7/2008 7:23:00 PM PACIFIC |
 Play it right?, JLenart, 18. Apr 2003 13:30 | ||
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| OK, So I'm still newish at hold 'em and I've read Lee Jones', thanks to the advice from people here. Went to play at a 5/10 game and did well. After about 1 1/2 hous I was up $85. I won a few big hands and only lost small ones. Then comes a hand that I'm not sure If I did the right thing on and I'd like some opinions. I'm in late position. 2 off the button and I'm dealt AKo. Before the bet gets to me it's capped. I call for $20. The Flop Come 8h 10h Jc. I'm Holding Ad Ks. Once again the betting gets hot. I should note this has been a very passive table before this hand with one exception and this maniac isn't in this hand. Again it is capped befiore it gets to me. I figure some one is on the flush and there might be a made straight, Worst case is someone made their set or has Pocket Aces or Kings. I know Pot odds probably dictate that I chase this pot but I fold it. The turn comes and Gosh darn it if it isn't the Qs. I'd have made my staright. The river is junk, 2D I think. I'd have one the hand and it was a big pot. Maybe I played too tightly. After this cards got cold for me, actually got beat by a guy who stayed in with 72o in late position and flopped a full house. After that I'd had enough and walked away from the table up $10 after 2 1/2 hours. So, the book reading has helped and I'm sure as I become more familiar with the material I'll get even better. So did I do the right thing by folding the AKo? Thanks. John | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, SendMoney, 18. Apr 2003 13:57 | ||
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| With all the heavy betting you probably made the river decision. Under the circumstances you'd have to figure that someone had either flopped a set, top two pair, a made straight, or AA or KK. Someone else was probably on a heart flush draw. In that sense drawing to your AK overcards was a moot point, and you were down to a gutshot straight draw on the Q. Gutshots are 11 to 1 even if they are the nut gutshots, and perhaps against a rainbow board it would have been slightly less objectionable to call, but against a board that had the possibility of a made straight and a flush draw you probably made the proper lay down. In a lot of scenarios you could have hit the Q on the turn, bet into it and capped it again, and then seen a heart of a card that paired the board and you might even feel compelled to absorb another round of betting, hoping you were only up against AA KK or a smaller straight. In many other scenarios you miss your Q, catch an A or K that gives you a worthless top pair, tempting a weak call. I think you made a good laydown. | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, ruffler, 18. Apr 2003 14:20 | ||
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| I've been reading this forum since it began but this is my first post. I've been playing 3 years of casino poker but only the last 1 holde'm. My thought is should you even be playing AKo against several bettors who have already capped the betting before it even gets to you. I think not as most of the cards you need are already out. I think fold pre-flop. | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, Snorbolus, 18. Apr 2003 14:44 | ||
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| I agree with Ruffler on this one. Folding before the flop would have probably been the best play. I can't think of many flops that you could play confidently with AKo after all that pre-flop betting from early position, non-maniacal players. You didn't say how many players were in the hand so it is hard to be sure about your odds to draw after the flop. Nevertheless it is difficult to imagine that you had sufficient to call 4 bets cold on a gutshot to what might not be the nuts. Even if you did have odds to draw a call here can only be slightly +EV and will put your variance way up. I think that it was almost certainly correct to fold on the flop; and even if, mathematically speaking, it wasn't there is something to be said for folding here anyway. Snorbolus on 18. Apr 2003 14:20 ruffler wrote: > I've been reading this forum since it began but this is my first post. I've been playing > 3 years of casino poker but only the last 1 holde'm. > > My thought is should you even be playing AKo against several bettors who have already > capped the betting before it even gets to you. I think not as most of the cards you need > are already out. I think fold pre-flop. | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, 4 POKER, 18. Apr 2003 14:47 | ||
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| I'm not sure If I would put in 4 bets cold with AK offsuit. Yes this is a strong holding, however with all that heavy raising pre-flop, unless you flop extremely well, it might be too hard to improve. You may even have to hit your hand twice, and unless you flopped the absolute nuts, this could be a very tough spot for you to be in. IMO, I really don't think it would have been that horrible for you to have thrown the hand away pre-flop. You did mention that the game was fairly tight, correct? I'm curious...what flop would you feel comfortable with? And what do you think your chances were to hit a favorable flop given all that previous raising and re-raising? You did flop the nut straight draw and you felt even then that you shouldn't even continue with the hand...are you getting my point? AK holds up all by itself many times in the right situation against a small field or in heads-up play, but not here. At least if you were suited you could have given yourself more outs and would have had a better chance at making a hand where you didn't need to flop an ace or a king, or a straight draw. These hands are definitely money makers but when they're overplayed, they can be quite costly. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, Andrew Wells, 18. Apr 2003 14:58 | ||
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| I'd have let go of AKo before the flop. It's not worth playing for four bets cold unless suited against players who are probably already holding cards you need. On the flop you have only a gutshot draw that also probably needs to avoid the river making someone a better hand. Catching one of your overcards is nothing if someone has a set or makes their straight when you pair. An ace or king is very likely to make someone two pair or top set at that point as well. You could also easily be up against another AK that you would have to split the pot with. Not a good spot to be in. When there's a lot of raising and you need to hit a draw to win, you have to downgrade your potential outs. Forget about the overcards to pair with, they are worthless. Discount the queen that may make someone a flush and you are left with three outs. Now adjust that down to two outs since you may split the pot with another nut straight, and you have to survive the river. Now see that you don't have odds to draw to effectively two outs and fold. It's tough when you would have hit perfect and stacked a huge pot, but that doesn't mean you made a mistake in folding. | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, shorn, 21. Apr 2003 05:21 | ||
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| You have to fold AKo for 4 -bets preflop. You can't figure any flop to win you the hand except TJQ rainbow (and even there you might be splitting + up agains a set or two that you could lose to by the river). You certainly can't count on hitting 2 pair and winning. I just think you don't have enough outs to warrant chasing at this table. | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, stdioh, 21. Apr 2003 09:21 | ||
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| This is a place where you really ought to get sucked along and call the cap on the flop. You have pot odds to chase your gutshot, but you also have overcards. You are guaranteed *giant* implied odds and drawing to the nuts. So if you hit your gutshot then you have beautiful suckalong the the other players. Chances are pretty good though that somebody is on a flushdraw, so you lose one of your outs there. Chances are also good that at least one player is on a set, so a paired board also kills you. Now if you turn a king or ace, you have odds to call for a river card since you've got your gutshot outs and you've got outs to trips or to 2 pair. Well, the problem with that is that your outs to trips will likely fill up whomever is on a set and your outs to 2-pair are already beat by a set. To make a long story short here, it looks like you're drawing to exactly 3 cards and then there are a lot of redraws against you. Implied odds swing both ways and if you make your draw, but a flush comes you're going to be paying off the winner. Thus you really have not got odds to call here and should fold and maybe cry about it. In normal situations a nut-gutshot with overcards is a great hand to be holding, but here I think that throwing it away would be ultimately appropriate. | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, shorn, 21. Apr 2003 09:30 | ||
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| stdioh- Do u advocate a call pre-flop here when it is 4-bet to u? I would have mucked then. I agree with your post flop analysis. I just don't see being in there in the first place. Steve | ||
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| Re: Play it right?, stdioh, 21. Apr 2003 12:29 | ||
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| That really depends on who is playing and who is raising. There are some players that will not 3-bet without holding KK or AA and if one of them did the three betting then it is an automatic muck situation. However, if the original raise was from a maniac and the three-bet looks like an isolation bet, then the cap could be appropriate from another player with a solid hand - jacks, queens, AQ, AJs, or another AK. It's a tough call, but I would say that if the right people are in the hand then you can call for value. You're only concerned with KK and AA here as hands that have you dominated. Certainly you need to play on your toes. | ||
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