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Server Time: 9/7/2008 7:42:43 PM PACIFIC |
 Player Devolopment, Roy Cooke, 18. Apr 2003 11:09 | ||
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| I think that many young players are playing better than the young players of 20 years ago. Part of the reason is the quality of information available through the Internet and books. I also think that part of the reason may be that through Internet hand histories, players are learning to read hands better with the better information. I would like to hear players thoughts on this issue. How many think they have learned to read hands well by studying hand histories? Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, 4 POKER, 18. Apr 2003 11:37 | ||
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| on 18. Apr 2003 11:09 Roy Cooke wrote: > I think that many young players are playing better than the young players of 20 > years ago. Part of the reason is the quality of information available through > the Internet and books. > > I also think that part of the reason may be that through Internet hand > histories, players are learning to read hands better with the better > information. > > I would like to hear players thoughts on this issue. How many think they have > learned to read hands well by studying hand histories? Though I'm not really sure about the hand history part, I definitely agree that there is a whole lot more information on the game now, and absolutely, the internet with all the poker sites and poker groups are educating the young players of today. This forum is a great example of that. Plus, poker is being looked at differently today than it was years ago. There making movies that the young people can relate to(Rounders), and it's become televised now making people even more interested in the game. Card player magazine is also a really good reference to go to when you want to learn all the ins and outs of poker. (by the way, I enjoy your column, Roy, You tell a story very well and have always been interesting reading material). 4 POKER > Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, David O'Connor, 18. Apr 2003 12:13 | ||
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| Hey Roy, what exactly do you mean by hand history's? give me an example-Thanx-Dave | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, Roy Cooke, 18. Apr 2003 12:39 | ||
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| On Internet poker sites you can request a hand history of every hand in which you play. It allows you to see all called hands without irritating the other players. Easy to use and full of good information. Roy Cooke on 18. Apr 2003 12:13 David O'Connor wrote: > Hey Roy, what exactly do you mean by hand history's? give me an example-Thanx-Dave | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, David O'Connor, 19. Apr 2003 00:06 | ||
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| tx Roy!-Dave | ||
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| Re: Planet poker Devolopment/degradation?, timmer, 19. Apr 2003 08:32 | ||
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| Ok here is a great launching pad for my rant: Roy, why in the hell doesn't Planet get with the program and offer the players ability to write notes and receive 100 hand history e mails I'm tired of the same old " our software is too old/ complicated to change now or Internet poker will be illegal in a few years excuses. I feel that Planet will be extinct in a year if it doesn't get up to speed. But then again maybe that's the exit strategy for Planets principal investors. " Let it crash *LIGARA* we got ours so lets ride that goat till it croaks completely." For the record I play on planet primarily because of the reputation of their spokes persons like Mike Caro and Yourself. Secondly, the ability to POS directly from my online gaming account to Planet and back again (ie no fire pay or netteller). But with other online sites gaining the ability to do this as well I very well may be jumping sites soon unless Planet gets on the ball and updates. Really the only reason I do stay other than those mentioned above is the stud structures are less funky than the other sites. I feel that even these are overly loose but then again that drives more rake $ to the site. So the players ability to change that are similar to the players ability to get sound structures re-installed in a major cardroom. Increased profit means "tough shit" for the players in almost if not every case. timmer On 18. Apr 2003 12:39 Roy Cooke wrote: > On Internet poker sites you can request a hand history of every hand in which you play. It > allows you to see all called hands without irritating the other players. Easy to use and full > of good information. > > Roy Cooke > | ||
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| Re: Planet poker Devolopment/degradation?, Andrew Wells, 19. Apr 2003 09:36 | ||
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| Understand that Planet Poker doesn't have programmers that work on the software. The software is produced by ASF gaming for which Planet Poker has a site license. | ||
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| Re: Planet poker Devolopment/degradation?, Tad Perry, 20. Apr 2003 00:52 | ||
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| on 19. Apr 2003 09:36 Andrew Wells wrote: > Understand that Planet Poker doesn't have programmers that work on the software. The software is produced > by ASF gaming for which Planet Poker has a site license. Always own your software! tvp | ||
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| Re: Planet poker Devolopment/degradation?, flintsword, 20. Apr 2003 11:21 | ||
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| The level of sophistication and security concerns involved in a multinational access poker site is going to need a level of softwear development distinctly superior to what can be developed from scratch even with superb software developers. I think it is fair to say that rather than owning your own software, make sure you have the very best software and ensure your access to it and upgrades is uninterrupted and ironclad. | ||
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| subspaceto enterprise "our planet is dieing", timmer, 20. Apr 2003 12:22 | ||
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| on 19. Apr 2003 09:36 Andrew Wells wrote: > Understand that Planet Poker doesn't have programmers that work on the software. The software is produced > by ASF gaming for which Planet Poker has a site license. Oh so that explains why Planet is behind the times. Its because ASF sucks. I get it.NOT!!!!! Some one better send a subspace message to the Enterprise because our Poker Planet is dieing. maybe its time to transport off this rock. scotty, energize!!! timmer | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, Mojo702, 21. Apr 2003 04:23 | ||
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| This may sound like a dumb question...but how exactly would I use hand history to further my developement? | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, Soleo, 22. Apr 2003 07:02 | ||
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| > This may sound like a dumb question...but how exactly would I use hand > history to further my developement? Let me explain how I use it. During the play I always request history so after complete session I have several e-mails with 100 hands each. Every hand listed there consists of several sections: list of players involved, hand actions step by step and summary. I look through e-mails to find those hands where I lost big amounts (summary contain this info) and copy/paste that hands to text file. Then I print it using very small font to fit many hands on single sheet of paper. Usually I take this paper with me to analyse it aside from computer before next day playing, say during lunch break in the office. What am I mostly looking for in that printout? First I simply analyze what actions were taken, were they optimal or not, second I precisely calculate pot odds to find where I was wrong in calling/betting, and next I may work out some new notes on my opponents. It's very important to do it before next session (I play 2-3 hours every day) to catch my mistakes in time. This will not make me strong player next day but I see that week by week it helps to improve my playing skills. Soleo | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, Mojo702, 21. Apr 2003 04:21 | ||
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| I agree w/ 4 POKER. You do make interesting reading...that's why I keep you on the toilet tank and read you (and Card Player) every time I go....=) | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, magicurt, 18. Apr 2003 13:59 | ||
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| on 18. Apr 2003 11:09 Roy Cooke wrote: > I think that many young players are playing better than the young players of 20 > years ago. Part of the reason is the quality of information available through > the Internet and books. > I'm a young player, it time played at least, so I don't know if I play better than anyone. If I win on a regular basis it seems reasonable to assume I am better than the games I select. My question is, with all the info available, has the casino game in general improved? Can I expect to study, do the work, show some disipline and start to win immediately? I plan on playing LL hold'em (up to 1,4,8,8)? Magicurt | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, 4 POKER, 18. Apr 2003 14:08 | ||
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| Noone should ever expect to win immediately, that's just impossible. The game still has luck involved. However, if you read books that you find very helpful and you have a good feel for the game, play good solid cards, you will INCREASE your chances of winning. If you play within your bankroll and ALWAYS have discipline(not just sometimes), then you can expect to do better than most! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, magicurt, 18. Apr 2003 20:17 | ||
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| Thanks, I will still expect to win and not be too dissapointed if I don't. I just always feel if I stick to what I know is right I should win against those who don't. I do know that in the short run anything can and will happen. This forum is great and ya'll are very helpful Thanks Magicurt | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, Andrew Wells, 18. Apr 2003 15:07 | ||
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| That looks like an accurate observation. It does seem that the new kids begin playing better than a similar group from ten years ago. The learning curve is likely accelerated by all of the information available that you mention. They probably also don't have to unlearn as many bad habits as before. | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, Dixie, 18. Apr 2003 16:34 | ||
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| i think that your theory is accurate. i'm a young player (21) and i make use of internet hand histories often to make notes on my opponents and get a feel for how people think and play their hands. i used to read my opponents hands with a strong emphasis on: "what would i call with in that situation?" or "i would only bet in that pattern if i held...". i have learned that many people think MUCH different than i do and the hand histories have helped me realize this and as a result, i have been able to make accurate reads on my opponents. now i have no personal opinion on how the young players of 20 years ago played poker because i didn't exist, however i believe that on average, players have become much more aggressive which automatically makes them tougher to play against. i have an older friend who played poker back in the 70's and 80's who is a decent player but i would categorize him as being fairly passive by my standards, he tells me that back in his hay day he was known for giving a lot of action!!! so i suppose this is a prime example of how the game has changed and how the players have developed. | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, Don Quixote, 18. Apr 2003 17:30 | ||
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| Roy, I am an old dog of 71. I find it is much harder to break an old dog of old habits than it is teach an old dog new tricks. I have been playing Texas holdem for two years now. My dad taught me fishing, hunting, and poker. His poker advice was never draw to inside straights and play very tight. Now, to your post: I never really studied hand histories like I should until I got Poker Tracker. I have read more hand histories in the past six weeks than I had in the two years previous. Hand histories along with filtering all the stats with Poker Tracker have helped my game a great deal. With a stat tracker, one cant lie to themselves about what they call with because it is right there in the stats in black and white. I can see that most off-suit hands are losers. My biggest profit comes from suited, pairs and suited connectors. As to reading hands, I am lousy but steadily improving. I find reading hands and seeing plays made coming in reverse harder to do than making the plays myself. I can make all of the plays, but it is harder to read them when someone else is making them at me. I know how Alice felt in "Looking through the Looking Glass.) The tens of thousands of hands I have played in LL online is starting to pay off though. I have no ambitions to play higher than $1/2. online. It is basically just a pleasant hobby for me and a great way to pass the time. BTW I have a BB win rate of $2.33 in the .50/1. game for the past six weeks that I have been using Poker Tracker. I have played several thousand games in that time. I am not up to one BB per hour in the $1./2. game yet, but I am satisfied with my progress. Thanks for your posts here and to the rest of the knowledgeable players that are willing to share their knowledge. Don Quixote on 18. Apr 2003 11:09 Roy Cooke wrote: > I think that many young players are playing better than the young players of 20 > years ago. Part of the reason is the quality of information available through > the Internet and books. > > I also think that part of the reason may be that through Internet hand > histories, players are learning to read hands better with the better > information. > > I would like to hear players thoughts on this issue. How many think they have > learned to read hands well by studying hand histories? > > Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, stdioh, 21. Apr 2003 12:58 | ||
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| > Roy, I am an old dog of 71. I find it is much harder to break an old dog of old > habits than it is teach an old dog new tricks. I have been playing Texas holdem for > two years now. My dad taught me fishing, hunting, and poker. His poker advice was > never draw to inside straights and play very tight. My grandfather taught me poker as soon as I was speaking in complete sentences. By grade 4 I was hustling other kids out of their video games and hockey sticks, staying up all night playing and then watching cartoons in the morning. My gradfather instilled in me the concept of never putting money out on an inside straight. The fact of the matter is that as I learned how to actually play the game, I learned about pot odds and implied odds, semibluffing, and the rest of it. There are lots and lots and lots of places where throwing money in on a gutshot is the unequivical right thing to do. They are few and far between, when compared to all the hands you'll see in a night, but they are there. "Never draw to an inside straight," is great advice to give to your young nipper learning the game, but it will decimate you if you stick to it forever. | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, ice, 21. Apr 2003 22:27 | ||
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| haha, it may not decimate you, if you NEVER draw to an inside strait, but in the long run, it will definitly cut into your potential profit. | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, JasonHoldEm, 18. Apr 2003 23:57 | ||
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| I think it's more than just hand histories. In reality, I think it's a combination of several factors: (For the record, I'm 25) 1) Poker is more mainstream today than it was 20-30 years ago. At the first WSOP there were only six entrants, last year there were over six HUNDRED (631 I think). Also (personally, and I think for a lot of people my age) the movie Rounders turned a lot of people on to the game of poker. Say what you will about the "hollywood" factor in the gameplay of the movie, I still love it. In additon to Rounders, the WSOP is now covered on ESPN, and the new WPT series is a smash success. Poker is no longer seen as a "smokey backroom" game full of cheats and angle shooters, but rather a "civilized" game where the skilled player has the advantage, but anyone has a chance to win (thank god, else we'd never get any action). 2) Once people get turned onto poker, (the ones who are serious about the game), begin to research it. (Stereotypically) Older players will buy a book or maybe two, and maybe they will understand the material, maybe not. People of my generation will turn on their computer, go to google and type in "Texas Hold'em". They'll undoubted find this forum (or others like it...no offense Mike). They'll also find the online cardrooms where they can play for real money (or meaningless play money) against real opponents all over the world. I'm not saying that the internet is necessarily better than books, but when used in combination with the books it is a very powerful tool. On the internet you can join in online discussions of strategies and hands, get tips from pros (or in some cases, play against them), there's even an online "poker school" now with lessons and everything (I just joined PSO...still haven't made up my mind if its worth $15 a month...we'll see I guess). The internet provides a much more dynamic learning expereince than just books alone, I tried to play head's up with my copy of HPFAP, but it just sat there. Regardless of what path you choose, you're still going to stumble when you first start out, but the additional information on the internet will help cushion the blow and help you learn from your mistakes faster. 3) Finally, and I know this might be a bit philosophical, but people of my generation have grown up with our parent's telling us "You can be whatever you want to be, if you put your mind to it." Our parent's generation grew up with their parent's telling them "You're going to be a doctor (or lawyer, or bricklayer, etc)." While this has led to a generation of very confused young adults, I think it has also made us believe in ourselves much more than people of our parents generation did at our age, if we believe that we can do something (i.e. play poker professionally for example...or just win regularly at our home game to be more realalistic), we're going to put a lot more effort into it than someone who doesn't believe in themselves as much. Even if we make mistakes when we first start playing, most of us are going to get back up, go study some more, and then come back and take the shirt off the guy who beat us. So I guess it's a combination of technology and generational differences that have allowed the younger generation to learn the game more quickly than those who went before us. What I really fear is the generation behind mine, I was playing in a single table tournament the other day against a kid who claimed to be 14 (I won't editorialize on underage gambling), but this kid was doing very well and ended up placing in the money with me...I fear when this kid turns 21 and takes his game to Vegas. peace, jHE | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, ice, 21. Apr 2003 22:38 | ||
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| on 18. Apr 2003 23:57 JasonHoldEm wrote: > 1) Poker is more mainstream today than it was 20-30 years ago. At the first WSOP > there were only six entrants, last year there were over six HUNDRED (631 I think). > Also (personally, and I think for a lot of people my age) the movie Rounders turned a > lot of people on to the game of poker. Say what you will about the "hollywood" > factor in the gameplay of the movie, I still love it. In additon to Rounders, the > WSOP is now covered on ESPN, and the new WPT series is a smash success. Poker is no > longer seen as a "smokey backroom" game full of cheats and angle shooters, but rather > a "civilized" game where the skilled player has the advantage, but anyone has a > chance to win (thank god, else we'd never get any action). never underestimate the hollywood affect. the movie "the hustler" and "the color of money" did the exact same thing for pool/billiards that movies like "rounders" are doing for the poker world. there was a significant increase in pool interest and play after the release of those two movies... the hollywood affect is a force not to be scoffed at, in my opinion. (if you couldn't tell, i play pool too ;) definitly check those movies out, classics. :D ) | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, Andrew Wells, 21. Apr 2003 22:57 | ||
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| I watch that Martin Scorsese classic sometimes just before returning to the card room after taking some time off due to running badly. One of the all time great gambling movies that happens to involve pool, but can also be applicable to poker. That scene at the end of the movie where Vince asks Fast Eddie why does he think he can beat him, and that inspirational retort "I'm back" just fires me up again. You have to see it to know what it means, but picture an older Paul Newman with that Cool Hand Luke glimmer in his eyes. | ||
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| Re: Player Devolopment, ice, 22. Apr 2003 21:43 | ||
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| haha, "fast and loose" fast eddie felson.... great character, it is a classic. fast and loose, a good way to play strait pool.... and under the right circumstances, an ok way to play poker too. i love that movie. *********** ¡¢£ßøx | ||
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