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Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:54:40 AM PACIFIC |
 No Foldem Low Limit Online, mroban, 16. Apr 2003 12:57 | ||
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| I want to share an experience I had last night. Playing in a 1-2 very loose aggressive game which I usually beat handily, I lost $40 in a little over an hour. There were 3 very loose (I would consider bad) players who were capping every pot with os drawing hands (4-6 os, stuff like that). I was getting premium starting hands like K-Q, A-Qs, 10-10 and calling 2 or 3 bets routinely since I felt my hands offered good value to win large pots. Of course, I missed almost every flop and the 2 I made ended up losing to guys chasing with rags and hitting a lucky river card (made sets on both with K-K and 10-10). I ended up tilting a bit and getting too aggressive out of arrogance, but I am curious if others have had similar experiences. I used my discretion and left the game, licked my wounds and moved on. Obviously you can win some very big pots but games like that will mean big swings in the bankroll I suppose. Anybody else have similar experiences? | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, shorn, 16. Apr 2003 13:07 | ||
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| Yeah. i see this a lot and it is one of the reasons I am taking a but of a hiatus from playing right now. I think we all know we want players like that in the game, but it gets tough seeing them take down monster pot after monster pot when you know they suck and are just getting lucky. What I usually do (online as you get more hands) is set a limit of 3 bad beats in an hour for myself...if I take those 3, I check my temperature to see where I am tilt wise. If I am OK, I stay and if not I log off. No sense leaking away more $$ just to "Get back at those bastages who hit perfect perfect to suck out on my set again!!!"...oops, sorry about that. I was having flashbacks... | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, Andrew Wells, 16. Apr 2003 13:14 | ||
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| We've all been there before, but KQ is NOT a premium hand at that table. You just try to connect with the flop on hands that can become monsters. AQs, KK, and TT are all worthwhile. Sets do get cracked in that type of game, but overall they hold up or fill up enough to be profitable in the long run. Nut flush draw is a nice thing to have in these spots as well. If you win one or two of these jammed pots you're golden, if not - that's poker it doesn't always happen. | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, Wren, 16. Apr 2003 13:14 | ||
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| Definitely. I lost close to $340 in about 4 hours online playing limits from $1-2 to $3-6. I started out playing just fine at $1-2, but took beat after beat and dropped close to $100 in just over an hour. At this point, I should have taken a break to let off some steam, but instead I opted to move up in limits. BAD IDEA. I continued to get good starting cards at $2-4 and $3-6, but most of them missed the flop completely, and I had some guy in there with bottom pair calling me down. I started to feel paranoid, like people were able to see my cards. I began to play badly. A few hours later, I'd managed to almost completely bust my bankroll, and decided to just withdraw the last $60 and say "to hell with online poker" for awhile. Lessons learned from this: (1) If you start to feel steamy, take a break (2) If you start to feel paranoid, take a break (3) If you start to feel like you shouldn't even play good starting cards 'cause they're just NOT GONNA HOLD UP DAMMIT!, take a break Of course, by the time I busted my roll, it was a little too late, but I don't think I'll endure a repeat of that little fiasco again :O) | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, shorn, 16. Apr 2003 13:21 | ||
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| Wren I can totally relate! I started to laugh when I got good cards thinking "Oh great...how is this one gonna get cracked!". Total nightmare. Sage advice though...do not move up in limits to "catch up" when you are in the middle of a bad tidal wave of cards (or as Worm would say, "I caought a frozen wave of cards like you read about..."). | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, Wren, 16. Apr 2003 13:34 | ||
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| Yeah no kidding....forgot to add that one into my "lessons learned" list. But that's probably the most important one of all! Moving up when one is tilty is just a Bad, Bad Idea (tm) | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, mroban, 16. Apr 2003 13:48 | ||
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| leaving is definitely a good idea at that point, thats what I did. But if staying, I think just becoming a rock and only playing premium pairs and A-premium suited hands until you "break the spell" is the way to go. In general, the odds are rarely there in those games to play drawing hands at all. I also fold in the SB alot more than I usually might (which isn't a bad thing either). This turned into a nice support group, thanks guys! In general, over time, we should be able to beat those guys. And yes, I agree that K-Q is not a "monster" in those games (especially os) but I think it certainly is worth a play. | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, Wren, 16. Apr 2003 14:09 | ||
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| Agreed...if you're determined to fight it out, tightening up's your best bet. The problem with this, however, is that your more aware opponents will not give you any action when you are in the pot with a great hand; you've essentially shifted temporarily into "rock mode". I know some players who shift back and forth significantly between being tricky, tough players and very tight, weak players, depending on how they're running, and I definitely prefer playing with them when they're in the latter mode. On the plus side, this does result in much lower variance, which is a good thing when one is not running well, and all it may take are a couple decent pots fed by some of the softer players to get one's confidence back up. | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, stdioh, 16. Apr 2003 13:58 | ||
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| Welcome to the aquarium. When you're at a table that is collectively that bad, your edge goes down. This is a phenomenon known as "schooling"...you are unable to read your opponents who do nonsensical things, but you also have a problem beating them because so many hang on until the river. Thus your monster hand is not a favourite because there are a tonne and a half of draws out there collectively punishing you - somebody is going to hit something and your overpair may as well get mucked. There are two things you can do to combat this. One is to play more drawing hands. Suited connectors become really nice. Play for the big big hands. The other thing you can do is find another table. Mythologically fishy tables aren't as good as a table with a couple of giant fish, a couple of total rocks, and a handful of players of all shades of poor. | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, mroban, 16. Apr 2003 17:08 | ||
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| thats great advice, thanks. But would you call 2bets cold pre-flop with 8-9suited (and the like)? Odds are 25% of making a 4-str8 with those hands and 25% of a 4-flush each so if everyone calls 2 bets it seems the odds are there and you can nail a huge pot. | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, Andrew Wells, 16. Apr 2003 17:52 | ||
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| A couple of things can go wrong. Someone might reraise, and the action may even get capped. That will make it right to play just about any flop that helps, but you'd rather not be in that situation in the first place. Connected hands play best when you can get into a multiway pot cheap (that's one small bet preflop). You can also make a nice hand and get outdrawn. Many of the other players will be justified at that point (especially on the flop) to try and hit a longshot. Even if you have the button and no one reraises, with twelve or more small bets in the pot your positional advantage has decreased. It becomes harder to bet or raise flops where your hand might want to take a free turn card. To play 98o for two bets before the flop I would want a very passive table and clueless players who would pay me off if I make a strong hand on the river. I still wouldn't do it more than occasionally even if I thought the conditions were right. | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, 4 POKER, 17. Apr 2003 08:19 | ||
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| on 16. Apr 2003 13:58 stdioh wrote: > Welcome to the aquarium. When you're at a table that is collectively that bad, your > edge goes down. This is a phenomenon known as "schooling"...you are unable to read > your opponents who do nonsensical things, but you also have a problem beating them > because so many hang on until the river. Thus your monster hand is not a favourite > because there are a tonne and a half of draws out there collectively punishing you - > somebody is going to hit something and your overpair may as well get mucked. > > There are two things you can do to combat this. One is to play more drawing hands. > Suited connectors become really nice. Play for the big big hands. The other thing you > can do is find another table. Mythologically fishy tables aren't as good as a table > with a couple of giant fish, a couple of total rocks, and a handful of players of all > shades of poor. I agree. Find another table!! If the game is too crazy, and you're not comfortable with playing against all maniacs and fishies, then don't. There are too many games to chose from that might be a better spot for you than to sit down with a bunch of people who have no respect or regard for your "play". If you're playing in a game where you can't bluff or value bet... why bother? 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, noiseboy, 17. Apr 2003 11:19 | ||
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| Hey 4 POKER, I think there are usually ample opportunities to value bet in these fishy games, because people will still call you if you have the best of it. You pretty much bet whenever you have a good draw, nut flush with overcards, for instance, because you will almost always have the odds. However, your statement that you can NEVER bluff in these games is quite correct. There is almost no deception in the no fold'em games. I agree that people who don't feel comfortable in these games should change tables; however, extremely loose games can be very profitable, although the swings and bad beats can be a drag when you are running bad. A better solution might be to do a deep study of implied odds and the play of drawing hands and come back for some "fishing". | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, Poker Crone, 19. Apr 2003 08:28 | ||
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| what do you mean play for the draw and play for big big hands? isn't that a contradiction? thanks... | ||
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| Re: No Foldem Low Limit Online, stdioh, 21. Apr 2003 09:11 | ||
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| I mean that you want to play drawing hands that draw into monsters and win big pots rather than playing big starting cards as made hands which don't go places. Something like KJo, for instance is not worth playing in a really loose game as hitting a king or a jack probably won't be enough to win it for you. Something like 67-suited however will almost always win when it improves to a good straight or to a flush and will take a giant pot when it does. | ||
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