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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:38:45 PM PACIFIC |
 Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, mkpoker, 15. Apr 2003 09:55 | ||
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| Here's an interesting hand from a 3/6 game. It worked out well for me, but I'd like others' thoughts on whether I played this right. I was in the big blind and got A/8(s). Most players called the blind, one raised. The raiser was a loose player who often raises pre-flop with OK hands, so I called. Had anyone reraised, I would have mucked--thinking someone had A-face or something similar. The flop came 8-8-K. I don't claim to be a great reader of tells, but the raiser seemed happy. Needless to say, I was thrilled. My best guess was that the raiser was holding A-K, K-Q, or something similar. I bet, a few people called. The initial raiser raised. I reraised. He reraised. I called. Everyone else folded. 4th street was no help. 4 I think. I bet. Without any hesitation, my opponent raised. He did it so quickly and confidently that my confidence was a little shaken. I thought maybe he had K-K or K-8. So I called without reraising. The river was the final 8 (only the 2nd time I've ever received 4 of a kind). My play was easy. I bet. He raised. I reraised. He reraised, etc (until the raise limit was hit). He had K-K pocket pair for a K-8 full house. His jaw hit the floor when I showed my hand. I'm a relative beginner and would love your thoughts on these questions. 1. From the blind (in the situation I described) would you play A-8(s)? 2. Had there been a reraise pre-flop, would you have played (honestly, I would have folded--and then kicked myself all night). 3. Did I play too conservatively on 4th street by just calling. Should I have reraised with my trip 8s? | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 10:20 | ||
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| > Here's an interesting hand from a 3/6 game. It worked out well for me, but I'd > like others' thoughts on whether I played this right. I'll be glad to put in my two cents. Before I do, I want you to know that I'll be criticising a lot, but don't take it the wrong way. I want to encourage you to play well. > I was in the big blind and got A/8(s). Most players called the blind, one > raised. The raiser was a loose player who often raises pre-flop with OK hands, > so I called. Had anyone reraised, I would have mucked--thinking someone had > A-face or something similar. Here you are playing these cards for the flush. If most of the players have put in a bet, then most will put in another bet. It is ok to cap it with A8-suited so long as there are enough people in the hand to give you odds on your flush. If you do this and make the nuts then they'll all get dragged along by pot odds when they are drawing dead. That said, it is not inappropriate to fold this hand to a reraise if you don't think you'll get enough callers. You really want 5+ opponents in the hand. > The flop came 8-8-K. I don't claim to be a great reader of tells, but the > raiser seemed happy. Needless to say, I was thrilled. My best guess was that > the raiser was holding A-K, K-Q, or something similar. I bet, a few people > called. Now this is definitely the time for a slowplay. You want your opponents with kings to play at eachother first, hoping that nobody has an 8. Pipe up when the turn comes and you are making larger bets and then you'll probably want to checkraise. What you're really praying for here is for somebody else to have an 8 and figure he's playing you like a fiddle. Chances are that nobody has K8 already because of it's poor quality as a hand. Still, I wouldn't call betting out here a totally wrong move - just something that you really oughtn't do in early position. The initial raiser raised. I reraised. He reraised. I called. > Everyone else folded. This action tells you everything about his hand. When he raises he is essentially saying that he has AK, KK, or KQ - there is pretty much no other option. When you three-bet, you are pretty much saying that you have AK, KQ, KJ, or an 8...I would put you on an 8 and a strong 8. I would say by your actions that you were holding A8. Now he 4-bets you. Sirens should be going off. He has to have KK or be a total idiot. At this point you should know that you're drawing to one out. Now there is the chance that he is A: really dumb or B: pulling a very advanced bluff - and there is a lot of money in the pot. So I could see you calling him down. But you *MUST* realize at this point in the hand that the chances of you winning it are very, very small. > 4th street was no help. 4 I think. I bet. Without any hesitation, my > opponent raised. He did it so quickly and confidently that my confidence was a > little shaken. I thought maybe he had K-K or K-8. So I called without > reraising. You should not be betting out there. Your confidence should have been totally rocked when he 4-bet the flop. You could maybe make a crying call, but you have to assume that he'll be out and you must know that he has KK. Betting out there is a giant glaring error. > The river was the final 8 (only the 2nd time I've ever received 4 of a kind). > My play was easy. I bet. He raised. I reraised. He reraised, etc (until the > raise limit was hit). He had K-K pocket pair for a K-8 full house. His jaw hit > the floor when I showed my hand. Now he made a giant mistake. If you bet into me on the turn there, I would be convinced that you were on K8. Thus when the case 8 came, I would have made a crying call on the river and hoped that you were playing AA and were not all that smart. > I'm a relative beginner and would love your thoughts on these questions. The most important question is this: Q: Did I give my opponent enough respect. A: Damn hell no. When somebody bets that hard they are on a monster. Your trips are no monster. > 1. From the blind (in the situation I described) would you play A-8(s)? Yep. It's just fine, so long as you realize that you are no good if you do hit an ace and can exit the hand gracefully. It is a dangerous hand to play and if you don't think you have enough experience you might want to chuck it. > 2. Had there been a reraise pre-flop, would you have played (honestly, I would > have folded--and then kicked myself all night). Depends. If I think there will be enough players in the hand to justify my playing for a flush then I would be there. More importantly I would *NOT* kick myself all night for making a fold. If you fold 27o and flop 227, then turn the case 2, you made a wonderful fold. You must play well even if you get punished for making a good fold. The more you play the more you will fold crap that "would have" improved to straight flushes and quads. It happens all the time. It is just something that you will have to get used to seeing. > 3. Did I play too conservatively on 4th street by just calling. Should I have > reraised with my trip 8s? No no no no no. You shouldn't have bet out at all. The word conservative should not even be mentioned in this hand history. You played this whole hand balls-out. Your 3-bet on the flop was appropriate, IMO, but there are those who would say you should just call there. Betting the turn there was a suicidal move. He must have a tight to be 4-betting the flop there. After you did bet out on the turn and he raised, a fold would have been ok, to be perfectly candid and honest. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, shorn, 15. Apr 2003 11:18 | ||
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| Good summary stdioh. The only thing I would add is that I would not call a raise and re-raise from early position with this hand unless there were a lot fo flat callers behind it (even then I think it is questionable since you will only flop your flush draw 8% of the time and your A is probablt no good). Otherwise, spot on. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 11:24 | ||
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| You have a 4% chance of making a flush on the hand, however when you're drawing to the nut flush you know that you are and most of your money goes in on the flush draw or on the flush. You still have the best hand if the board 4-flushes and you still have the other weird ways of making a hand such as trips two pair, etc. Also, when you have a reraise preflop, it means that you are looking at other good hands out there. So then if you do hit your flush it gains an aweful lot of implied odds as opponents with overpairs and the likes are not going to have an easy time of throwing away their cards. If you think there's a very good chance that you will see the flop 6-handed then I would say you can call here certainly. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, shorn, 15. Apr 2003 11:29 | ||
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| I should clarify. i think the odds of hitting your 4-flush are around 12-1 on the flop (or 8.5%). Anyway, I agree that is you can get 6 players, then this is the right play. But I guess that with a raise and a re-raise, from early position, I need at least 3 cold callers behind me to come in to call. I don't favor capping it here from the blind because out of position, it is unlikely that you can check and get a free card no matter what the flop looks like. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 11:39 | ||
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| limpers most often will pay another 2 bets though. Depends heavily on the table texture. I think that either a call or a fold there could be correct under the right circumstances. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, mkpoker, 15. Apr 2003 12:36 | ||
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| Glad my post yielded such an interesting exchange. Thank you both for your comments. Generally, I wouldn't call a raise with A8(s), but in this case, the raiser had been raising pre-flop all night with garbage, so I figured it was worth a go. More generally, I think the most interesting comment was the suggestion that folding trip 8s would have been appropriate at the turn. With 8-8-K-4 on the board, and no good flush draws, I would never have done that (I can see in retrospect that I was probably too aggressive, however). It's a very tough decision to fold a very good hand because you think your opponent might have a great one. Thanks again. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, Wren, 15. Apr 2003 12:50 | ||
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| I think that in reality almost nobody will fold a hand like this on the turn here. At least not at the low limits. You have to be an incredible read in order to be absolutely sure of your opponent's hand, otherwise you are making a huge mistake to fold such a large pot with a hand this good. This being said, though, it is important to realize when it is time to slow right down - that chances are *quite good* you are up against an absolute monster. Upon thinking about this a little more, I agree with stdio - after your opponents cap on the flop, you should not be leading the betting on the turn. In this way, you will lose less money when you are not good, but you will still (most likely) make two big bets if you ARE good, and your opponent continues to (stupidly) push a hand like AK or AA. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, Wren, 15. Apr 2003 12:31 | ||
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| Hmmm....a few comments here: "Chances are that nobody has K8 already because of it's poor quality as a hand." In a low limit game, some players are just as willing to put money in with K8 as they are with a big pair. Infact, some players are just as likely to RAISE a hand like K8 as they are a big pair. You've even seen this at your 10-20 game, so I don't think it's a good idea to make this assumption. "Still, I wouldn't call betting out here a totally wrong move - just something that you really oughtn't do in early position. " I think betting out here is fine, because if you suspect the late position preflop raiser to raise, you can trap some players for an extra bet. I like betting out here, and going for the checkraise on the turn. The initial raiser raised. I reraised. He reraised. I called. > Everyone else folded. "This action tells you everything about his hand. When he raises he is essentially saying that he has AK, KK, or KQ - there is pretty much no other option. When you three-bet, you are pretty much saying that you have AK, KQ, KJ, or an 8...I would put you on an 8 and a strong 8. I would say by your actions that you were holding A8. Now he 4-bets you. Sirens should be going off. He has to have KK or be a total idiot." This is just it. There are quite a few overaggressive players (aka "idiots") who will 4-bet with AK or AA here (you forgot the possibility of his holding AA). You can't assume at this point that you are drawing to one out. However, you're probably right in that betting out on the turn is not a good idea. The most important question is this: Q: Did I give my opponent enough respect. "A: Damn hell no. When somebody bets that hard they are on a monster. Your trips are no monster." Again, depends on opponent. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 12:50 | ||
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| Thanks sweetie. You definitely present an intelligent counterpoint to me and I think that it is important to see things both ways. Indeed, I've gone 7 bets with characters before you were only on draws (and then made them of course - how else would I find out?) I guess what I would say is this - if you are playing somebody whom you know to be a maniac, play as you did, but if they are any colour of solid, then back off a notch. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, Wren, 15. Apr 2003 12:57 | ||
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| "I guess what I would say is this - if you are playing somebody whom you know to be a maniac, play as you did, but if they are any colour of solid, then back off a notch." Well put! Wanna play a sit n go? | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 13:26 | ||
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| Gotta be doing that pesky job thing...shouldn't even be posting here. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, Wren, 15. Apr 2003 12:18 | ||
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| 1. From the blind (in the situation I described) would you play A-8(s)? Yup, sure. With all those callers, and because it's half price, that's an easy call. With a flop of A-high though, you'll have to tread very carefully. You're ideally looking for two pair, a flush/flush draw or trip 8's. 2. Had there been a reraise pre-flop, would you have played (honestly, I would have folded--and then kicked myself all night). I would fold to a reraise here. 3. Did I play too conservatively on 4th street by just calling. Should I have reraised with my trip 8s? It really depends on the player. If the player really is a loose cannon who'll routinely fire out a raise on the turn in a situation like this with AK, I'd consider popping it again. However, you did say that he seemed to love the flop and that he continued to exude confidence on the turn. Since you had a pretty strong read, slowing down was probably a good idea. I think it's important to trust your gut in situations like this. So yeah - good play. BTW - where were you playing? At most casinos, there is no cap when it becomes heads up. Was it capped at 5 bets? | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, Piers Majestyk, 15. Apr 2003 16:11 | ||
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| I agree with most of the comments made about how you played this hand. My comment deals with how the raiser played his hand. You bet the flop and had a few callers. In my opinion I would have just called with KK and let you bet out again on the turn with your 8 and trapped all those calling with 2 BB. I think the raiser played the hand poorly on the flop. I like your reraise on the flop to drive the others out but when he caps I am simply going to call him down from there. | ||
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| Re: Interesting Hand...Thoughts?, stdioh, 16. Apr 2003 07:43 | ||
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| Driving the others out here is precisely the problem though. You don't have to worry about anybody making a draw to A88 with no flush draw. Thus you want people on second best hands hanging around and paying you off. So betting out isn't the worst move, but when you get raised then this is an appropriate time for an overcall, to rope all the limpers in. By raising you are making the worst of it if you have the best of it. Lets say that you are winning and you raise, then you fold out the other players who together will put a lot more money in that the other raiser. If the other raiser has a better hand than you then you are paying him more and if you have a better hand then the table is paying you less. Really this flop should not be three-bet here. | ||
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