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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:29:36 PM PACIFIC |
 Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, flintsword, 13. Apr 2003 15:41 | ||
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| In a 185 player NLH tournament at www.thehendonmob.com, I had Kh9c on the button and flat called after 5 limpers, SB folds, and BB checks. In early position, a player had 6 6 and the flop came up KK3, I raised aggressively and found two (!!) callers, including Mr. 6-6. Turn was a 5 leaving only the 6 6 player. The river was another five. The gentleman with the 6 6 called all my bets and stated he "had to do it". The question: If you are holding a small pair, and a big pair flops, should you bet the small pair if it is larger that any other possible pair outside of the large flopped pair (kings here) or is this hand deader than a dodo? I suggested he post it but he said "You won, you post it". I am curious in opinions before I crunch some math on it. Thank you for any insight. | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, 4 POKER, 13. Apr 2003 19:48 | ||
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| First, I need to know what the chip positions were in relations to the blinds. Was the 6-6 player a small stack, were you a chip leader at this point, were you both even in chips? Were the limpers loose or tight, passive/aggressive? There were many variables to your question that you did not address. If two of the limpers were tight then your play was extremely wrong pre-flop given that many players in a NL tournament will limp in with AKs, KQ, KJ, and K10, leaving you a big underdog against those hands.However, if the player that held the 6-6 was a short stack then his play was correct pre-flop. Another question... How did the betting go, flop, turn, river? You may not have raised enough on the flop because you felt your kicker was no good. Was there a flush draw on the flop?... The player holding 6-6 may have put you on a flush draw. What kind of image did you have at the table at this point? The player holding the 6-6 may have called you down for the size of the pot. Please answer these questions so we can delve into this subject deeper. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, flintsword, 13. Apr 2003 20:20 | ||
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| First, I need to know what the chip positions were in relations to the blinds. Was the 6-6 player a small stack, were you a chip leader at this point, were you both even in chips? Were the limpers loose or tight, passive/aggressive? There were many variables to your question that you did not address. If two of the limpers were tight then your play was extremely wrong pre-flop given that many players in a NL tournament will limp in with AKs, KQ, KJ, and K10, leaving you a big underdog against those hands.However, if the player that held the 6-6 was a short stack then his play was correct pre-flop. Another question... How did the betting go, flop, turn, river? You may not have raised enough on the flop because you felt your kicker was no good. Was there a flush draw on the flop?... The player holding 6-6 may have put you on a flush draw. What kind of image did you have at the table at this point? The player holding the 6-6 may have called you down for the size of the pot. Please answer these questions so we can delve into this subject deeper. 4 POKER The chip positions in relations to the blinds: Mr. 6-6 was not really short stacked but he was not chip leader. I believe I was 2nd highest or tied for 2nd highest stack. I had significantly more chips than Mr.6-6. The limpers were generally loose. The betting on the flop was checked by Mr. 6-6, I raised 5BB, and the 6-6 called. On the turn again he checked, I bet, 6-6 called. On the river again, he checked, I bet, 6-6 called. My bets were generally 4 to 5 BB. You are right, I did NOT have a good enough kicker so I kept the bets expensive but raisable. There was no flush draw on the flop (sorry, I should have mentioned that) My table image? Well, I know what Table Image is supposed to be, but as an amateur it is probably straight forward and when I bet, I mean it. I used it to build up my stack a little earlier in the game. I had not considered the idea he was calling me down for the size of the pot. That hand is starting to get hazy now but given this data, was this player right in betting his pair of sixes into the teeth of what "seemed" to be three kings. I read your posts and others often. After I posted this I thought to myself: "Oh oh, another "it depends" situation. Next time I post a question I will expand the information base. Thanks for taking the time to asking for clarification. | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, 4 POKER, 13. Apr 2003 23:25 | ||
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| on 13. Apr 2003 20:20 flintsword wrote: > First, I need to know what the chip positions were in relations to the blinds. Was the 6-6 > player a small stack, were you a chip leader at this point, were you both even in chips? > Were the limpers loose or tight, passive/aggressive? There were many variables to your > question that you did not address. If two of the limpers were tight then your play was > extremely wrong pre-flop given that many players in a NL tournament will limp in with AKs, > KQ, KJ, and K10, leaving you a big underdog against those hands.However, if the player > that held the 6-6 was a short stack then his play was correct pre-flop. Another > question... How did the betting go, flop, turn, river? You may not have raised enough on > the flop because you felt your kicker was no good. > Was there a flush draw on the flop?... The player holding 6-6 may have put you on a flush > draw. What kind of image did you have at the table at this point? The player holding the > 6-6 may have called you down for the size of the pot. > Please answer these questions so we can delve into this subject deeper. > > 4 POKER > > The chip positions in relations to the blinds: Mr. 6-6 was not really short stacked but > he was not chip leader. I believe I was 2nd highest or tied for 2nd highest stack. I had > significantly more chips than Mr.6-6. The limpers were generally loose. The betting on the > flop was checked by Mr. 6-6, I raised 5BB, and the 6-6 called. On the turn again he > checked, I bet, 6-6 called. On the river again, he checked, I bet, 6-6 called. My bets > were generally 4 to 5 BB. You are right, I did NOT have a good enough kicker so I kept the > bets expensive but raisable. There was no flush draw on the flop (sorry, I should have > mentioned that) My table image? Well, I know what Table Image is supposed to be, but as an > amateur it is probably straight forward and when I bet, I mean it. I used it to build up > my stack a little earlier in the game. I had not considered the idea he was calling me > down for the size of the pot. That hand is starting to get hazy now but given this data, > was this player right in betting his pair of sixes into the teeth of what "seemed" to be > three kings. > > I read your posts and others often. After I posted this I thought to myself: "Oh oh, > another "it depends" situation. Next time I post a question I will expand the information > base. Thanks for taking the time to asking for clarification. Every decision in poker is situational that's why to answer your question, there is no absolute answer. For example, sometimes you will raise with AJ and other times you will fold it to a raise- It all depends on the "situation", who raised, what position did the raise come from,etc.. If I were facing five BB's on the flop and I held 6-6, I would only have two options in my mind; the first and probably the best coarse of action is to fold. The second is to go all in. I would only do the second if I were low on chips. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, shorn, 14. Apr 2003 06:08 | ||
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| I agree with 4 POKER here. Mr. 66 needed to fold in the face of your bet or go all in if he thought you were trying to buy the pot. Folding was the correct play for him though because he had action behind him ( the other limpers) before it gt back to you and the chances that no one had a K out of those 4 is pretty slim. If he had you heads up and had a good read on you, then maybe going all-in would have worked. | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, Easy E, 14. Apr 2003 19:58 | ||
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| Mr. 6-6 was not really short stacked but he was not chip leader. I believe I was 2nd highest or tied for 2nd highest stack. I had > significantly more chips than Mr.6-6. The limpers were generally loose. The betting on the > flop was checked by Mr. 6-6, I raised 5BB, and the 6-6 called. On the turn again he > checked, I bet, 6-6 called. On the river again, he checked, I bet, 6-6 called. My bets > were generally 4 to 5 BB. You are right, I did NOT have a good enough kicker so I kept the > bets expensive but raisable. There was no flush draw on the flop (sorry, I should have > mentioned that) My table image? Well, I know what Table Image is supposed to be, but as an > amateur it is probably straight forward and when I bet, I mean it. I used it to build up > my stack a little earlier in the game. I had not considered the idea he was calling me > down for the size of the pot. That hand is starting to get hazy now but given this data, > was this player right in betting his pair of sixes into the teeth of what "seemed" to be > three kings. Unless he was pot-stuck at the end, he shouldn't have looked you up. Only thing he beats here is a high card and pairs lower than 5's. Probably shouldn't have called, though you didn't make it expensive enough to call with your raises, either. 5BB wasn't enough with all of the limpers. | ||
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| Correction on last sentence, Easy E, 14. Apr 2003 19:59 | ||
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| that is, "he probably shouldn't have called on the flop, though you didn't make it expensive enough to call with your raises, either. 5BB wasn't enough with all of the limpers, and that's the reason he also shouldn't have called (loose limpers, 55 and Kx have to enter his mind)" | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 10:16 | ||
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| Mr. 66 is a bad bad poker player. That said, why are you facing a field of limpers preflop in a no-limit tournament with K9o? It is the sort of hand that costs a lot of money. hat happens if you hit your king? Now you hit two kings, so that isn't the end of the world, but it is still a difficult hand to play. I would have folded that preflop and waited for something better. | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, flintsword, 14. Apr 2003 21:47 | ||
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| >why are you facing a field of limpers preflop in a no-limit tournament >with K9o? It is the sort of hand that costs a lot of money. What >happens if you hit your king? Now you hit two kings, so that isn't the >end of the world, but it is still a difficult hand to play. I would have >folded that preflop and waited for something better. I thought that in this game with NO raises to speak of (except for mine) it was a "fixed expense" so to speak, and every time I bet Ax or Kx, knowing there was no raise coming, I kept thinking "why am I betting this?" I have been thinking about your comment, and I think the bottom line is I let this particular games environment influence my playing standards. This is a problem of discipline. I won the game, but at the cost of playing substandard. So possibly I am on par with Mr. 6-6, him for playing 66 into a pair of kings, and me for playing Kx in the first place. Ty for your comments everyone! | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 09:40 | ||
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| Well, I think that you played the hand ok. The thing about fixed expense is that it is easy to get trapped with. A friend of mine, who IMO moved up to 10-20 from the easy as hell 5-10 too quickly was playing in a nolimit tournament recently. He had a terrible hand - 94o and called a raise in the big blind from a UTG raiser who made a 3X the blinds raise. I asked him why he would play these cards (he told the story because he flopped trip 4's and won the hand) and he told me, "If I flop at least 2 pairs then I'm golden and if not then I can get the hell out." It shocked him when I said, "Any two cards can win." He blanched and realized that he had been trapped into fishiness here. If you need to hit 2 pair for your hand to stand a chance, you should never ever ever be playing it. Now K9 isn't quite so bad as all that, but it is hold'em. It is a game where you can throw away the *vast* majority of your hands preflop. Now, in all fairness, I played a K9 preflop on the weekend and I felt terrible for it. Lots of limpers and I limp on the button with K9 off. Flop is AXY - rainbow and it is checked around to me. I throw my cards in the muck then and there. Somebody at the table said, "Wow. I've never seen anybody check out on the button before!" Why did I do it? Because I had just lost a big hand and was halfway to tiltink and I knew one important thing. I was drawing dead. The chances of somebody having at least a weak ace were very big. The chances of somebody having a better king were huge. The only way I could win there was to catch both a king and a 9 and there is no way I was going to pay a big bet to see the second of those cards anyway. And at this table, it was also a sure thing that somebody would bet the turn, nomatter the card. Add to that the fact that there were a couple of trappers at the table who could be slowplaying sets. Screw it, I'll go for a pee break, take a short walk, some deep breaths, and come back to the table when I'm ready to throw away K9o without a second thought. | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, shorn, 15. Apr 2003 11:11 | ||
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| Nice advertising value from that fold later too. Like.."Wow, that guy must be a really tight player to fold without a bet to him!". | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 11:43 | ||
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| It causes people to wonder what is going on in my head. Nomatter what, there is no way that I'm seeing the river on this hand nor can I take it now, so I'm going to pitch them...pitching them there looks less bad than pitching them on the turn when there is a bet to me. Essentially I'm saying that I *know* that I'm drawing dead so I'm not even going to bother. When some player turns out to have a monster then it looks nice and scary. In general, I don't advertise too much at my home casino though. The good players know that I'm a good player and stay out of my way as I stay out of theirs. The fish don't know anything and play bad enough that it doesn't matter. My casino is really a game of the raccoons huddled around the goldfish pond picking them off in turn. | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, mroban, 17. Apr 2003 10:47 | ||
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| this player is a total fish. Whats his online handle? | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, 4 POKER, 18. Apr 2003 04:54 | ||
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| On 17. Apr 2003 10:47 mroban wrote: > this player is a total fish. Whats his online handle? I still think the REAL question should be... What was the other player(the man who posted this question) doing in with K9 off-suit on the button in a N/L tournament?? Just because he happened to flop 3 K's doesn't mean he played a good hand... This holding is total trash pre-flop and with 2 players limping in who are tight, makes his call even more catastrophicallly incorrect. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Playing 6-6 into K-K: Bet or dodo?, chasepoker, 18. Apr 2003 05:33 | ||
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| If the table has been prone to folding bets on the flop from the button you can sometimes slip in there with garbage on the button and then do exactly that raise the pot on the button. Of course you need the right image and the right table... But with 5 limpers already in the chances of someone NOT flopping something worth a call for a pot sized bet drop massively. | ||
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