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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:57:39 PM PACIFIC |
 Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 17:27 | ||
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| I was playing in a short handed pot limit hold-em game. There were four players total. I was in big blind position, there were two limpers and the small blind folded to me. I picked up pocket deuces and decided to throw in a raise of twenty dollars. Well the first limper just called but the second limper now raised the pot to sixty. I knew I had to hit, but when you're holding 2-2, you always have to hit! I was reluctant in throwing in the additional forty dollars but I thought, if the original limper calls and I happen to get lucky, This pot could yield me a big profit having invested just sixty dollars. Maybe I just could have checked it along with them pre-flop, but I think I was anxious to win a big pot! The story has a tremendous finish, as when I saw the flop I couldn't believe my eyes! Not one deuce, but two! I flopped quads! The flop came up 2-9-2 in that order! Now, being totally out of position with this monster I didn't know what to do! I knew I wasn't betting the flop, that was for sure. So I check the flop, the limper checks behind me, and the last man, the original re-raiser checks as well! I thought, how the heck can he check this flop---- BET, I said to myself, PLEEEASE BET! But no such luck. The turn brought an 8, (no flush draw possibility), and I decided to check it again. (Hey, I wasn't going to invest sixty dollars on a pair of deuces in a 5-10 blinds pot limit game and then bet the turn. I wanted someone to bet it for me)! Well I checked it, and now the limper bets the pot (Inc. Small blind, $185.00). Not bad I thought, BUT, now the last man in decides to raise the pot himself! He says, "I raise, pot limit". Music to my ears! He makes it $370.00. I just called hoping to string the limper in for another bet and the limper called as well. Now, after I put in $370.,making the pot $740, the limper had to match that, making it $555. More for him to call. He called and now the pot stands at $1,295. ($60x3,+ $370x3, + 5.00 small blind). The river brought an offsuit 6 leaving the board to read, 2-9-2-8-6. The stone cold NUTS! Now I didn't want to risk not betting and giving them a free river, so I bet a fairly large amount, I knew the raiser had either a full house or a big pocket pair. I bet $700, the limper folded and the last man just called, shaking his head in disgust. I show him my hand and he turns up two QQ's. Why would someone make a substantial raise pre-flop with two QQ's and then check the flop that seems to be a good flop for him? Why let an overcard get there for free? He was last to act and IMO, he should have tried to win the pot right there. I wound up winning a $2,695 pot yielding me about $1,600. What would you have done pre-flop with two dueces? I know I got extremely lucky and it felt soooooooo good, but nonetheless I will say that I never played the game again! I couldn't believe how big the pot can get after just a few small bets, wow! That was my first experience at pot limit, and even though I dragged in a monster, the game was too much for me to handle... too risky. Comments welcomed! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Wren, 11. Apr 2003 18:29 | ||
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| Wow....huge! Where were you playing a pot limit game this big? Was it online? What were the blinds? Yeah, I'd say your preflop play was questionable at best, and you certainly got lucky hitting a flop like that, but I think you played it very well from the flop onwards. It would have been a little easier for you had you been last to act though, which again points to the immense value of position, especially in a NL/PL game. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 19:02 | ||
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| Hey Wren, Thanks for the input. I was playing at a casino in Atlantic City, the blinds were 5 & 10. And yes, you ARE right, those really are big blinds...I just didn't realize it! (Like I said, It was mt first time playing pot limit)... never again!!! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Pkrrookie, 11. Apr 2003 21:57 | ||
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| PLHE in AC? Was it the Taj or the Trop? | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 22:49 | ||
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| Hi pkrrookie, The pot limit game was played at the Tropicana in Atlantic city. They spread the game there every Friday night and sometimes the game continues throughout the weekend. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 21:49 | ||
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| What made you decide on that table selection? Shorthanded pot-limit would look real bad to me. Bought in for $1000? Got to be an easier game going. What a hand though, that's what makes big bet stimulating! Suppose the player with pocket queens wasn't so concerned with your having AA or KK and made a $40 bet on the flop, would you have considered a very unusual $40 checkraise? That may seem odd, but a flat call with such a board could invite more suspicion later in the hand. I wonder what the player in the middle had to get so involved, that overcall on the turn after betting pot is just terrible. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 23:05 | ||
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| HI ANDREW, Yes, his overcall was bad given the situation, but I didn't mind it at all! Had this been a limit hold-em game, I probably would have bet the flop. I would not have check-raised though because that play seems too suspicious to me. But with leading on the flop in a limit game, anyone who holds powerful cards whether they be AK, or a big pocket pair would raise me anyway. I would then raise him back gaining me an extra bet on the flop. When the turn comes I will decide then If I want to lead again or go for the check-raise. But in pot limit, with a monster holding like quads, there's no way I would want to scare anybody from calling. To answer your first question as to why I chose a short handed pot limit game... I never saw any of those players play in the game before; I'd been watching the game discreetly for about an hour and then decided to give it a shot. I was previous playing in a 30-60 stud game that had broken up early, won a decent amount and decided to invest half of my winnings by taking a shot in the pot limit game. I was extremely lucky, never played another hand after that one, and I'm not sure if I ever will! It was a very nice score for me that night though. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Andrew Wells, 12. Apr 2003 19:44 | ||
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| Given the preflop backraise from the last limper, the pot is already large. Eventually you're probably going to have to make some kind of significant bet at the pot hopefully when someone hits their hand. The board is already paired, and you are likely to be up against at least one if not both players holding a pocket pair. Therefore there aren't many cards that really help you to get someone heavily involved. Someone's going to have to make a move at the pot instead, which in this case worked out well for you. I doubt you win nearly as much if the flop gets bet and you flat call. Someone who flat calls out the blind with a paired board after raising pot preflop just seems to scream slow play. That's why I favor an unusual flop checkraise with your monster if it is probe bet. A raise, but the smallest amount available still gives the other limper somewhere from 2:1 to 4:1 to chase the turn. It may be read by the player in last position as an attempt to move the chaser in the middle off two overcards without investing too much. I might even come over the top and reraise pot with those queens if you made that kind of play to a small flop bet. If I chose to just call (with ot without the other player in the hand for the turn), and you checked again on a blank turn, I probably bet pot at that point as well. Since these players don't know you, that might be giving enough rope to hang them, whereas a flat call on the flop with big action on a later street could be more suspicious. Anyway, I'd be looking for something unusual to do with such a monster in a big bet game rather than a conventional slow play. It may very well have worked out best for you that the flop got checked around though. Don't be so quick to give up pot limit hold'em, it plays more rationally at a full table. That hand and huge pot was caused primarily because of the bad player that was UTG. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 12. Apr 2003 19:54 | ||
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| on 12. Apr 2003 19:44 Andrew Wells wrote: > Given the preflop backraise from the last limper, the pot is already large. Eventually you're > probably going to have to make some kind of significant bet at the pot hopefully when someone > hits their hand. The board is already paired, and you are likely to be up against at least one > if not both players holding a pocket pair. Therefore there aren't many cards that really help > you to get someone heavily involved. Someone's going to have to make a move at the pot instead, > which in this case worked out well for you. I doubt you win nearly as much if the flop gets bet > and you flat call. Someone who flat calls out the blind with a paired board after raising pot > preflop just seems to scream slow play. That's why I favor an unusual flop checkraise with your > monster if it is probe bet. A raise, but the smallest amount available still gives the other > limper somewhere from 2:1 to 4:1 to chase the turn. It may be read by the player in last > position as an attempt to move the chaser in the middle off two overcards without investing too > much. I might even come over the top and reraise pot with those queens if you made that kind of > play to a small flop bet. If I chose to just call (with ot without the other player in the hand > for the turn), and you checked again on a blank turn, I probably bet pot at that point as well. > Since these players don't know you, that might be giving enough rope to hang them, whereas a > flat call on the flop with big action on a later street could be more suspicious. Anyway, I'd > be looking for something unusual to do with such a monster in a big bet game rather than a > conventional slow play. It may very well have worked out best for you that the flop got checked > around though. Don't be so quick to give up pot limit hold'em, it plays more rationally at a > full table. That hand and huge pot was caused primarily because of the bad player that was UTG. Thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll try it again someday, they do spread the game almost every friday where I live. There's just so many other games that I really enjoy. In fact I play every game in the house , stud, omaha 8, stud 8, and holdem. I"m just not used to that structure of betting, ( or should I say, lackthereof). But I remember the first time I played Omaha hi-low, I hated it! And now it's my favorite game to play!!! So, thanks, I will be a little more open-minded when it comes to pot/limit. 4 POKER > | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Andrew Wells, 12. Apr 2003 19:58 | ||
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| You would have got zip if those players weren't in a trapping mode. You won't see that much preflop at a full table. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 12. Apr 2003 19:59 | ||
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| on 12. Apr 2003 19:58 Andrew Wells wrote: > You would have got zip if those players weren't in a trapping mode. You won't see that much preflop at a > full table. agreed! | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Mark, 12. Apr 2003 23:55 | ||
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| i'm just now reading Super System for the first time and you played it just as Doyle suggests ( as long as you have the same type of image, and it sound like you do). he suggests raising with many hands( and not folding to small reraises )when you have the opportunity to take big pots like that. I used to think that you were playing way too loose, but the system works. It paid for itself in the first 20 mins of the 1st session i played after reading it. mark | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 13. Apr 2003 04:27 | ||
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| On 12. Apr 2003 23:55 Mark wrote: > I'm just now reading Super System for the first time and you played it just as Doyle > suggests ( as long as you have the same type of image, and it sound like you do). > > he suggests raising with many hands( and not folding to small reraises )when you > have the opportunity to take big pots like that. > > I used to think that you were playing way too loose, but the system works. It paid > for itself in the first 20 mins of the 1st session I played after reading it. > > mark Hi Mark, Well I'm sure my preflop raise was questionable however I was pleased on how I handled the betting through the remainder of the hand. The players in the game seemed to be inexperienced and even though I was new to pot limit myself, I felt that I still had a pretty good sense of the game and my reading abilities had made up for my lack of experience.(at least against those players it did). I also watch the game and sit behind some of the players that I know have much experience in playing pot limit. That combined with reading some books have helped me, I'm sure. However, IMO, That particular type of game P/L or N/L is a game in which one really needs to get the "feel" for it by playing the game for himself. I have read Doyle Brunson's Super System a long time ago and I think it's a great book and can be very helpful-- Has always been for me! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, shorn, 14. Apr 2003 06:26 | ||
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| Wow! Great score. Poker is like golf...it is those few hands that go completely correctly that keep you coming back for more. To answer your original question, I probably would have mucked my 22 pre-flop after the last limper's re-raise. Even though he did it to most likely try to isolate one of you, you have to figure that you are behind when that happens. So, I would have mucked and then cried all the way home after seeing that flop... :( | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 07:00 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 06:26 shorn wrote: > Wow! Great score. Poker is like golf...it is those few hands that go completely correctly > that keep you coming back for more. > > To answer your original question, I probably would have mucked my 22 pre-flop after the last > limper's re-raise. Even though he did it to most likely try to isolate one of you, you have to > figure that you are behind when that happens. So, I would have mucked and then cried all the > way home after seeing that flop... :( Most definitely! Mucking would have been a good choice there. But I would have been sick after doing so!! ( I know that there are many times when we fold hands that would've turned out to be monsters, It still doesn't mean that they were correct to play in the first place, I totally agree. BUT, I would have been SICK... In fact, I would have been steaming!!! ha ha!! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Mark, 15. Apr 2003 09:31 | ||
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| with 22 you need alot of help, but when you get you will get paid off, some times so big that the one hand puts you ahead for the night or week. I don't think calling the raise was questionable. In a limit game its a garbage hand, but in PL and NL you can make very big pots with a very disguised hand. Playing the hand for $40 ( i think that was the re-raise) was peanuts to the pot he ended up winning. mark | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:01 | ||
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| > I was playing in a short handed pot limit hold-em game. There were four players > total. I was in big blind position, there were two limpers and the small blind > folded to me. I picked up pocket deuces and decided to throw in a raise of > twenty dollars. Well the first limper just called but the second limper now > raised the pot to sixty. I knew I had to hit, but when you're holding 2-2, you > always have to hit! I was reluctant in throwing in the additional forty dollars > but I thought, if the original limper calls and I happen to get lucky, This pot > could yield me a big profit having invested just sixty dollars. Yikes! I expect more from you. That is really really really bad preflop play. Don't take this the wrong way, but I feel I need to put some discussion on playing 22. Small poket pairs play well against a large field or heads up. Against a large field you want to hit your set and then get paid off well, so you want many opponents to pay you. Heads up, you are hoping that your opponent is on overcards and hits no pair. Now when you raise you 22 that is a valid move - you are trying to either take the money now or isolate one player. The fact that there were two limpers though means that you should be raising more than a minimum raise - in fact there is never a good reason for making a minimum raise preflop in a no limit cash game - at least I've yet to be convinced that there is. Making a minimum raise will not isolate one player and if anything you're going to chase you players that you want so that you can hit your set. That was your first mistake and a bad one. Now your second mistake was just eggegious. When you are reraised you call! First off, what is your opponent reraising with? Dollars to pesos says he's got a bigger pocket pair. If he does, then he has you dominated and bent over. If he's got no pair, but only overcards then you are still a coin flip. Now is the time to cut your losses and toss your deuces into the muck. The only other acceptable move here (though still highly questionable) is to push all-in, representing aces which should fold him if he's got anything but aces and crush you if he has aces, however this is also a move I would never make. A call is ludicrous. Now, once you've flopped quads you can play fast or play slow - that's a matter of style. When I hit tiny quads on the flop I like to play it fast, since slowplaying will convince your opponents that you have at least trips. If you bet out it looks like you have overcards, an overpair, or top pair and you can often get called or raised.Then if a scare card comes I usually like to check and if a weak card comes I'll bet again. Notwithstanding, you should never be raising a tiny pair unless you already have 5 opponents with money in the pot or unless you are trying to get yourself down to exactly one opponent. Even then I'll only want to go heads up with deuces if I'm in desperation mode in a NL tourney and fighting not to blind out. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 11:28 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 11:01 stdioh wrote: > > I was playing in a short handed pot limit hold-em game. There were four players > > total. I was in big blind position, there were two limpers and the small blind > > folded to me. I picked up pocket deuces and decided to throw in a raise of > > twenty dollars. Well the first limper just called but the second limper now > > raised the pot to sixty. I knew I had to hit, but when you're holding 2-2, you > > always have to hit! I was reluctant in throwing in the additional forty dollars > > but I thought, if the original limper calls and I happen to get lucky, This pot > > could yield me a big profit having invested just sixty dollars. > > Yikes! I expect more from you. That is really really really bad preflop play. Don't > take this the wrong way, but I feel I need to put some discussion on playing 22. > > Small poket pairs play well against a large field or heads up. Against a large field > you want to hit your set and then get paid off well, so you want many opponents to > pay you. Heads up, you are hoping that your opponent is on overcards and hits no > pair. Now when you raise you 22 that is a valid move - you are trying to either take > the money now or isolate one player. The fact that there were two limpers though > means that you should be raising more than a minimum raise - in fact there is never a > good reason for making a minimum raise preflop in a no limit cash game - at least > I've yet to be convinced that there is. Making a minimum raise will not isolate one > player and if anything you're going to chase you players that you want so that you > can hit your set. That was your first mistake and a bad one. > > Now your second mistake was just eggegious. When you are reraised you call! First > off, what is your opponent reraising with? Dollars to pesos says he's got a bigger > pocket pair. If he does, then he has you dominated and bent over. If he's got no > pair, but only overcards then you are still a coin flip. Now is the time to cut your > losses and toss your deuces into the muck. The only other acceptable move here > (though still highly questionable) is to push all-in, representing aces which should > fold him if he's got anything but aces and crush you if he has aces, however this is > also a move I would never make. A call is ludicrous. > > Now, once you've flopped quads you can play fast or play slow - that's a matter of > style. When I hit tiny quads on the flop I like to play it fast, since slowplaying > will convince your opponents that you have at least trips. If you bet out it looks > like you have overcards, an overpair, or top pair and you can often get called or > raised.Then if a scare card comes I usually like to check and if a weak card comes > I'll bet again. > > Notwithstanding, you should never be raising a tiny pair unless you already have 5 > opponents with money in the pot or unless you are trying to get yourself down to > exactly one opponent. Even then I'll only want to go heads up with deuces if I'm in > desperation mode in a NL tourney and fighting not to blind out. Hey, your comments and your experience on this type of game are more then welcomed here... Don't worry about it ! I do agree with you on what you are saying, I was irratic in my decission making, I guess I was just gambling. And for you to say that you expect more from me, scares me just a bit (LOL), That type of play is something I usually don't do! how'd ya gues???? One more thing I wanted to add, (not saying that it matters too much on my raising) but, the game was not N/L, It was P/L. I wasn't able to push all in. Good Feedback. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 12:03 | ||
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| Glad that there's no further enmity between us...part of me was cringing when I wrote my response and hoping that I didn't ellicit some ascerbic response. So it's all good. And yeah...pot limit games IMO are more dangerous than no limit games for just this reason. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 11:36 | ||
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| Actually, alot did have to do with the size of my raise. The game was pot limit, not no limit. I wasn't able to make a decent size raise even if I wanted to pre-flop. The most I was able to raise was the size of the pot which was the $20 that i had bet. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 12:05 | ||
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| Hmmm....you said that there were two limpers, n'est pas? So then there was 5 SB, 10 BB, 10 limp, 10 limp, your 10 is 45, so you could have put in 90 total for a full pot-sized raise. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 12:21 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 12:05 stdioh wrote: > Hmmm....you said that there were two limpers, n'est pas? So then there was 5 SB, 10 BB, 10 > limp, 10 limp, your 10 is 45, so you could have put in 90 total for a full pot-sized raise. I feel that I should give you my phone #, my fingers are killing me! Stand corrected, The blinds in this pot-limit game are $5 &5, not $5 & 10. My max bet pre-flop was correct, $20.00. (both players limped in for $5, standing the pot now at $20; I then made my complete raise. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 14:22 | ||
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| to get really technical about it, you could have thrown in $25 then, since you get to count your call as part of the money in the pot when you make a pot sized raise. Notwithstanding, your raise to 20 isn't then a minimum raise and that being the case is not inapropriate. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 14:30 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 14:22 stdioh wrote: > to get really technical about it, you could have thrown in $25 then, since you get to count your call as > part of the money in the pot when you make a pot sized raise. > > Notwithstanding, your raise to 20 isn't then a minimum raise and that being the case is not > inapropriate. What took you so long???????????????????? I've been sittin' here waitin' to hear from you !!!!!!!!!!! (just kidding) 20-25, who knows, who cares, I won !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm getting very punchy now... time to remove myself from this chair! thanks again, 4 poker | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Andrew Wells, 14. Apr 2003 15:53 | ||
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| He's in the second blind position, there's nothing to call. Maximum raise is $20. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 15:57 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 15:53 Andrew Wells wrote: > He's in the big blind, there's nothing to call. Maximum raise is $20. That is what I thought... thank you. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Andrew Wells, 14. Apr 2003 16:01 | ||
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| That's if it was ordinary blinds of $5 and $5. But you said the small blind folded in the original post, which implies blinds of $5 and $10. So maybe you could have raised $35? Anyhow, it's okay to play high variance and mix it up there shorthanded. Raise $20 doesn't look bad until you got popped by the button. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 21:10 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 16:01 Andrew Wells wrote: > That's if it was ordinary blinds of $5 and $5. But you said the small blind folded in the original post, which implies > blinds of $5 and $10. So maybe you could have raised $35? Anyhow, it's okay to play high variance and mix it up there > shorthanded. Raise $20 doesn't look bad until you got p opped by the button. The blinds were $5 & 5, the small blind folded AFTER I raised. I raised the pot on the flop, $20. This my final answer, I'm sticking to it! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Andrew Wells, 14. Apr 2003 21:24 | ||
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| I liked your preflop raise. I know you raised maximum. You have to call the button's reraise because of the huge difference in pot odds vs. implied odds if you flop the set with deception. I was just needling a bit, sorry. It's an interesting hand, and I'm sure you would ordinarily just check in the second blind. It would have been immortal if the first limper had pocket eights. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 09:55 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 15:57 4 POKER wrote: > on 14. Apr 2003 15:53 Andrew Wells wrote: > > He's in the big blind, there's nothing to call. Maximum raise is $20. > > > That is what I thought... > thank you. Not to flog a dead horse here, but I'm pretty sure that he was not in the blinds, if there were two limpers and the button was yet to act. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, Andrew Wells, 15. Apr 2003 19:50 | ||
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| That's not what I read. Dead horse anyway for sure. | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, 4 POKER, 15. Apr 2003 21:06 | ||
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| on 15. Apr 2003 09:55 stdioh wrote: > on 14. Apr 2003 15:57 4 POKER wrote: > > on 14. Apr 2003 15:53 Andrew Wells wrote: > > > He's in the big blind, there's nothing to call. Maximum raise is $20. > > > > > > That is what I thought... > > thank you. > > Not to flog a dead horse here, but I'm pretty sure that he was not in the blinds, if there were two limpers and the > button was yet to act. BREAKDOWN OF THE PLAYERS AND THEIR POSITIONS: small blind - phil big blind- myself limper #1-joe limper #2- The Button Those were the positions-- This was a 4 handed game not a 5 handed game. There couldn't have been two limpers with the button still yet to act. The second limper WAS the button, period. After limper #1 calls and limper #2(the button) calls,the small blind checks, I raise, the first limper calls, the second limper (the button) now raises again. The small blind folds. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pot limit hold-em Qustion?, stdioh, 16. Apr 2003 08:20 | ||
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| My bad. | ||
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