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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:18:26 PM PACIFIC |
 Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, noiseboy, 11. Apr 2003 16:47 | ||
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| Hello everyone, poker authorities seem to have some very different views on the low offsuit connectors. Authors like Cloutier suggest that it doesn't matter that much whether they are suited, since flush draws only come up 5% or so, and he argues that you'd rather have the straight draw or two pair or trips anyway, since if you catch the flush draw, you might run into a bigger flush and lose a lot of bets. Authors like Gary Carson have pointed out that if two people are drawing to the same flush, it is MUCH less likely that either of you will make it, which would seem to indicate that playing for a baby flush isn't so bad after all. However, as I'm sure has happened to all of us, you can lose a LOT of money on a hand if that fourth flush card comes and you end up losing to a lone A or K in that suit. At the other extreme you have Abdul, author of a popular pre-flop strategy on the web, who puts the opposing view succintly "Man can not live on straight draws alone." He would argue that authors like Slansky and Cloutier have made a mistake in putting too much value to low unsuited connectors, and that you should pass on them in all but the most extremely favorable conditions. Anyway, I'm interested in where you guys stand on these hands, I'm not really sure myself, I've played them and couldn't really tell you whether or not it has been profitable for me or not. Are playing these hands a leak, or are there situations where I am missing profit if I'm not playing them in multiway pots? I could see them being profitable at a loose passive table where even if all you pick up is a three straight or a small pair, sometimes the low flops get checked around and you might get a free card to pick up a second pair, trips or an open ender. In aggressive games, I think they are probably just toilet paper, you certainly don't want to call any raises with them. Thanks for any input. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, jdsalinger, 11. Apr 2003 18:23 | ||
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| they are a loosing proposition the lowest connecters you should play are J10.Low connectors like low pairs slowly eat away at money. Nothing worse than hitting one of you pairs and possibly paying the extra sb. although if I play connector I like to play straight cards that will involve an A or high cards thus getting paid off. 45s has that possibility though I still contend never play those | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 18:42 | ||
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| I feel one way about low connectors, suited or unsuited. If I am in early position, I fold. If I am in late position and there are enough players in already, then i might see the flop giving me the correct pot odds to do so. I will not call a raise with this hand unless I am on the button or the cut-off and I'm almost possitive that the blinds will not reraise. I will only call one raise with these type of hands and I have to feel that the blinds are not the aggresive/maniac types that might raise it again. (there has to be enough players in before i will call). So alot has to do with the aggression of the players yet to act. With multiple players calling pre-flop, I will call with low connecting cards (quite often, but not always) for one bet, however, even if my cards are suited I will not put too much merit on that draw. There are just too many players involved to think that if I made a flush it might not be good enough anyway; and a four flush on the board would definitely cripple any flush that I had. Having said all that, There will be times when I will throw in a raise with low connectors near to or on the button. It's just a way for me to mix up my play, and to advertize a little bit. (I do this mostly in live games, not on-line). The people that play with me in the casino perceive me as being a tight, straightfoward, nothing but the nuts type player, so for me to raise with a hand like that makes them think that maybe I'm not as good as they thought. Therefore, It allows me to make more money when I do have a big hand, I'll get paid off more by inferior holdings; and by players that wouldn't normally have paid me off had they not seen that previous play. Alot does have to do with your table image, and for me, I MUST make those occasional, irratic raises; but I don't go overboard, I just keep them on their toes so they don't know where I'm at. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 18:56 | ||
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| Having stated how I feel about those low connectors and how I play them sometimes, is something that you have to feel comfortable with as well. If you are just starting out in the poker world then maybe you should stick to the basics, play solid cards, don't get out of line, and get a feel for the game first. It could take a year, two years, who knows, but when you're ready to mix it up and gamble just a little (I said a little), then you can enter more pots with inferior starting hands. For the simple reason being, right now you might not know what to do with this hand if let's say you flop a pair, or you flop a flush draw and are not sure whether you should continue or fold. If you do find yourself undecided too often, then playing these holdings are not right for you... Not yet. Good luck, have fun, be comfortable, & play smart. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, shorn, 14. Apr 2003 06:17 | ||
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| One thing to add to this is that when you do play them in late position in a multi-way pot (the only place to play them IMO), you MUST throw them away if the flop doesn't hit you TWICE (either your outside straight draw, flush draw, or two pair). Where they become a significant $$ loser is when you hit second or third pair (or even top pair) and call all the way only to see overcards beat you on another street. This is especially true on LL games because you can't force other's out by playing aggressively. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 07:25 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 06:17 shorn wrote: > One thing to add to this is that when you do play them in late position in a multi-way pot (the > only place to play them IMO), you MUST throw them away if the flop doesn't hit you TWICE > (either your outside straight draw, flush draw, or two pair). Where they become a significant > $$ loser is when you hit second or third pair (or even top pair) and call all the way only to > see overcards beat you on another street. This is especially true on LL games because you > can't force other's out by playing aggressively. I agree- You better hit this hand twice,or bail ! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, Risky Business, 14. Apr 2003 10:18 | ||
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| Here's my confusion with 4-P post: If I'm counting on the flop to make my straight, and it doesn't hit or come close, I'm not waiting to dump my cards...therefore, once the over cards inevitably flop, nobody has seen my trash that I'm throwing away. Surely your aren't suggesting that I pay for the hand just to show after the river, right? Are you assuming that the table reads you for small connectors once you expeditiously muck once a bet comes out after the flop? Big assumption in these loose on-line games!! | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, TKarrde, 14. Apr 2003 10:32 | ||
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| Well he said that he did it in live games. So if he is heads up he might flip them up. If he was not... I don't know the ettiqutte on that. Isn't that bad form? TK | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, Risky Business, 14. Apr 2003 10:44 | ||
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| With the millions of players across the globe, etiquette these days is merely what the most vocal population has voiced, not necessarily the majority of play. That being said, if anyone ever turned up their cards after the flop, and it cost me a big pot, you'd have to peel me off 'em. This may be taboo, but I've seen people fold, and keep their cards with the intent to show. Again, a pretty lenient practice at best. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:18 | ||
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| The fact of the matter is this: If you start exposing your cards a lot you'll get turfed out of any casino. If you expose them after all action is complete and you don't need to then you are giving away information about you. There is still a time and place to do it, but not just to say, "Look. I played suited connectors." I will sometimes flip a bluff face up that has taken down a pot if I plan on playing honest and want more action and if I think that I can put my opponent on tilt by revealing to him that he has just made a catastrophic fold. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, 4 POKER, 15. Apr 2003 21:59 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 10:44 Risky Business wrote: > With the millions of players across the globe, etiquette these days is merely what the most vocal population has > voiced, not necessarily the majority of play. > > That being said, if anyone ever turned up their cards after the flop, and it cost me a big pot, you'd have to peel > me off 'em. > > This may be taboo, but I've seen people fold, and keep their cards with the intent to show. Again, a pretty > lenient practice at best. I think that you were confused when I had said that I like to play low connectors sometimes for advertizing. My hand never gets turned up unless I am able to show it as the winning hand.(the word advertizing when relating to poker simply means that you play an "off" hand in HOPING to be able to show it down as a winning hand,and not one that you just turn over yourself because you want everyone to see it at the table.) The last time I checked, there weren't any bad etiquitte reports on turning over your hand face up when it was the winner!!! As far as the table being able to read me for low connectors pre-flop because when the flop came up with high cards I mucked, that would be ridiculous! How could they possibly put me on only one particular holding? There are numerous of hands that you should or will throw away on the flop when it comes up high, not just low cards. (If I'm holding Q-10hearts, and the flop comes K-A-7, all spades, does that mean that I must have been playing low connectors pre-flop because I now folded my hand?? Of course not. As far as making any type of moves (playing a weak hand for advertzing purposes), like I said in an earlier post, I strictly do that in live games, not on-line. The players on-line are not aware enough to even remember that the tight player just played a bad hand! I wouldn't even waste my money! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:15 | ||
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| Indeed. This is very germain. However, there are still exceptional circumstances where you can hit one pair and play them. For instance if the flop is raggety and you hit one pair and have a very good read that your two opponents are both on overcards. Or if you have a giant pot and you are sure that your opponent is on an overpair, you may have pot odds to draw to your 6 outs. But yes, in general you need to flop 2 pair, a flush draw, an up/down, or a pair with gutshot to play this. Again, if you have pot odds to do so you might be able to draw to a gutshot, but you pretty much need to have 5 players in the hand with a preflop raise and be drawing to the nut straight to do it. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:11 | ||
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| It really depends a lot on table texture. I love to play 45 suited against a loose passive table because you have pot odds on your straight or flush even if there is a raise after you - a bunch of opponents who will cold call two at the drop of a hat is wonderful for the drawing hands. When you are unsuited however you often have trouble from the fish, simply because bigger straights can happen a lot. What happens when you have 45o and the board comes 678? You're at a fishy table or you wouldn't be playing this hand, so now there are all kinds of opponents holding 7's and 8's for their gutshots and holding flushdraws if they are there too. You have no redraws so your made hand is tenuous at best. Now a scare card comes and you will often lose, but be unable to extract real money if you hit. Flushes only land on suited cards about 4% of the time, but they make a lot of money when they do. Suited connectors have a lot of ways to hit. For that matter, small suited one-gappers are even playable at loose passive tables. And example from my session yesterday - I had 68 suited on my post at the new table behind the button and I flopped the nut straight with up/down straight flush draw. I was able to checkraise the flop to bring in a lot of money and then managed to get it capped by a player who flopped a set. The beauty of this hand is the redraws. The set is already paying me off, but now if I hit a straight flush and he tightens up, he'll certainly pay me gigantically. And because he was essentially screaming at me that he had a set if the board pairs and I don't hit I can ditch my hand. Needless to say, I was praying to the poker gods for the 4d to come and make his tight and my straight flush. As it happened two blanks fell and I took down a healthy pot only for him to not notice that I had him the whole way and bitch about getting beat with crappy cards (that I posted with). The fact of the matter is that 68 suited hits a lot more than you would think. 68o is a real piece of cheese and almost completely unplayable, but 68suited can be played sometimes in the small blind, sometimes on the puck, and sometimes to defend the big blind, in each case if there are enough players in the hand. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:12 | ||
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| I should say that the worst offsuit connectors I will play on the puck with the most favourable conditions and a family pot is 78. In most games I won't play any offsuit connectors worst than JT. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, Mike Caro, 14. Apr 2003 16:16 | ||
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| Hi, NoiseBoy -- In general, I side with Sklansky on this, although the other authors have valid positions, too. It's true that you will only connect for a flush a small percentage of the time, but that makes up a meaningful percentage of the times you WIN. Even medium-ranking suited connectors are often not enough to call raises with in limit ring games and, oddly, it's sometimes better to play them short handed than multi-handed. Although that's counter-intuitive, the reason is that you can connect for a single medium pair against one or two opponents and have it hold up a substantial amount of the time. This doesn't happen as much against a lot of opponents, where you usually need to make the straight, the flush, or two pair or better to win. Yes, there are many times when you'd rather have a lot of opponents against suited connectors (especially when you just call early or call a lot of players already committed), but the hand can be used profitably to call with in the blinds or even to attack the blinds from a late position. In fact, I very often re-raise on the button against a late raiser when I'm holding a hand like 9-8 suited, in the hopes of getting heads-up, buying the pot later, connecting for a pair, or actually making something. Another factor in favor of this raise (which I don't use routinely, just often) is that you are apt to be checked to on the flop and can then decide whether to continue the assault or to take a free card. However, with a hand like 9-8 of mixed suits (the subject of your post), I very seldom even play in the same situation. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, noiseboy, 14. Apr 2003 17:28 | ||
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| Thanks, I see what you mean about playing them short-handed, they might be okay against a player with a completely random hand, because you might steal, and if you have to see a flop, you still have a couple of ways to win. So you seem to be saying that suitedness gives them just enough to be worth it in the right situations. I guess a lot of players see them on the hand charts tend to play them in the wrong situations. I think for a lot of players these hands are just a leak, as they play them in the wrong situations, I know I've done this on occasion so I'll have to work on it. Playing tight, I guess, is not just what hands you play, but when you play them. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, Andrew Wells, 14. Apr 2003 20:39 | ||
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| An ideal book on limit hold'em wouldn't have any starting hand charts. It would begin with a discussion of the button and blinds, and clearly demonstrate that position is the most crucial aspect of the game. All of the strategic examples introduced would build on that concept. The reader would thus become aware indirectly what types of hands have advantages and drawbacks based on this. Theory, mathematics, bluffing, countermeasures and psychology can all be covered with the underlying thread of position. To have memorized what to do with what cards before the flop is sort of like a chess player who has studied only the openings. He usually enters the middle game with an advantage from having mimicked the moves of former masters or researchers, but has little understanding how to convert such advantage into a winning end game. It does help to learn the parameters of tight play, but it is more important to learn how to take advantage of other players mistakes. So you eventually find that there are situations where 72o is a raising hand; but to get there you should have learned why, not what is playable. Focus on the concepts, a lot of very accomplished players on this forum are already giving you that foundation for free. Don't be concerned about bad advice on this forum, there are too many of us posting here to let poor information pass without a counter reply. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 10:00 | ||
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| Great observation and paralell to chess. I'm thinking back to my days when I thought I could be a half decent chess player and indeed, my openings were shadows of great openings and my endgames were pathetic - much the way I started playing poker hands. Great poker players have no rules at all - only guidelines, some stronger than others. | ||
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| Re: Low Connectors offsuit, playable?, stdioh, 15. Apr 2003 09:58 | ||
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| Great post. I *love* the idea of three betting with 89s on the button against a button-1 player's raise. It's something I would never do, but the way you explain it, I think I'll try it next time I'm in that position and a weak player raises there. Thanks loads Mike. | ||
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