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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:29:56 PM PACIFIC |
 Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, Steve S, 11. Apr 2003 07:25 | ||
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| Hi all, I've been lurking on this forum for a while and am extremely impressed with quality of posts from the regular contributors, so I've come out of the closet for some advice. I'm pretty much a newbie, with a few months of vLL on-line experience (100+ hours). I'm finding that I'm able to beat the .50 - 1 games quite regularly, so every now and then I take a shot at the 1-2. My results here vary but a big problem I find is running into a flopped set or 2 pair when I have TPTK or an overpair. I like to drive the action when possible and I'm always concerned about giving free cards (charging the chasers is the way to make the $ at LL right?). However, is there a good way of spotting someone who is slowplaying a set (or top 2) versus someone who is on the draw or do you have to drive it until you get raised on the turn, then slow down and/or muck? I find dropping really hard with these hands heads-up. As always, I realize that knowing the opposition really helps, but for the sake of argument, assume you've just sat down and don't know the opponents. Regards, Steve. | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, shorn, 11. Apr 2003 08:02 | ||
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| on 11. Apr 2003 07:25 Steve S wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been lurking on this forum for a while and am extremely impressed with > quality of posts from the regular contributors, so I've come out of the closet > for some advice. > > I'm pretty much a newbie, with a few months of vLL on-line experience (100+ > hours). I'm finding that I'm able to beat the .50 - 1 games quite regularly, so > every now and then I take a shot at the 1-2. My results here vary but a big > problem I find is running into a flopped set or 2 pair when I have TPTK or an > overpair. I like to drive the action when possible and I'm always concerned > about giving free cards (charging the chasers is the way to make the $ at LL > right?). > > However, is there a good way of spotting someone who is slowplaying a set (or > top 2) versus someone who is on the draw or do you have to drive it until you > get raised on the turn, then slow down and/or muck? I find dropping really hard > with these hands heads-up. > > As always, I realize that knowing the opposition really helps, but for the sake > of argument, assume you've just sat down and don't know the opponents. > > Regards, > Steve. Steve- I always get nervous if I have TPTK or OP to the flop, it is bet to me, I raise and then someone cold calls behind me. The texture of the board is important here as you need to look and see what draws are out there (straight or flush). If this happens to me and the flop is 952 rainbow, then I am pretty sure I am behind and am more cautious on the turn. If the flop was JT7 with two suits, then the cold caller could be in there with any number of draws. So, on the turn with the first flop (unless that card helps me), I would most likely check/call or check fold (unless I have AA in which case i would probably give it one more test). On the second flop, I bet for sure if the turn is a blank to make sure I don't give free cards. If a cold caller raises me then, how I playt depends upon whther or not I now have backdoor outs or not as well as the size of the pot. Also, size of the pot on the flop is important. Even with a coordinated board, if the pot is small then you are less likely to have someone with a draw call you due to the poor pot odds. In low limit though, this isn't always true. I guess bottom line, there will never be a way to completely know where you stand and there will be plenty of times that you get raised on the turn where you should give it up. One thing to remember in LL is that there aren't too many players at that level that would semi-bluff raise the turn, so if it happens, you are most likely beat. Hope this helps. Steve | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, Steve S, 11. Apr 2003 08:18 | ||
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| > One thing to remember in LL is that there aren't too many players at > that level that would semi-bluff raise the turn, so if it happens, you are most > likely beat. This statement is pure gold Steve, after the latest reread of TOP / HEFAP, it's all to easy to suffer from Fancy Play Syndrome and out play yourself. I think I'll put this on a post-it on my screen! What would you do if it is checked to you a second time with an OP, a 2-tone flop and a blank on the turn (say three handed with both calling a pre-flop raise + a flop bet)? Bet and fold to a raise? Cheers, Steve. | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, shorn, 11. Apr 2003 09:22 | ||
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| on 11. Apr 2003 08:18 Steve S wrote: > > One thing to remember in LL is that there aren't too many players at > > that level that would semi-bluff raise the turn, so if it happens, you are most > > likely beat. > > This statement is pure gold Steve, after the latest reread of TOP / HEFAP, it's all to > easy to suffer from Fancy Play Syndrome and out play yourself. I think I'll put this on a > post-it on my screen! > > What would you do if it is checked to you a second time with an OP, a 2-tone flop and a > blank on the turn (say three handed with both calling a pre-flop raise + a flop bet)? Bet > and fold to a raise? > > Cheers, > Steve. Steve- Thanks for the comment. In your scenario, I would most certainly bet again if they show weakness and if raised on a blank I would have to re-evaluate the play of the hand to that point. Again, sometimes it is hard at LL to determine where you stand because more players will enter a pot with less than they should. So, you are more likely beat with an overpair on a raggedy board than you would be if you were playing 10-20 or higher. That being said, you don't dare not bet and let the drawing hands play for free (unless the turn brought you the monster that cannot be defeated). In my experience, most of the time when you have shown strength in LL pre-flop and on the flop, and then you are raised on the turn you are beaten and it is best to muck. However, every situation is an independent trial, so the board, the play of the hand to that point, what (if anything) you know about the plaer who raised, and if you can help on the river (plus the odds to get there) MUST be considered. Keep at it and always play tight/aggressive. You WILL be a long-term winner in that game if you stay disciplined. That I can guarantee. Steve | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 17:42 | ||
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| on 11. Apr 2003 08:02 shorn wrote: > on 11. Apr 2003 07:25 Steve S wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've been lurking on this forum for a while and am extremely impressed with > > quality of posts from the regular contributors, so I've come out of the closet > > for some advice. > > > > I'm pretty much a newbie, with a few months of vLL on-line experience (100+ > > hours). I'm finding that I'm able to beat the .50 - 1 games quite regularly, so > > > every now and then I take a shot at the 1-2. My results here vary but a big > > problem I find is running into a flopped set or 2 pair when I have TPTK or an > > overpair. I like to drive the action when possible and I'm always concerned > > about giving free cards (charging the chasers is the way to make the $ at LL > > right?). > > > > However, is there a good way of spotting someone who is slowplaying a set (or > > top 2) versus someone who is on the draw or do you have to drive it until you > > get raised on the turn, then slow down and/or muck? I find dropping really hard > > > with these hands heads-up. > > > > As always, I realize that knowing the opposition really helps, but for the sake > > of argument, assume you've just sat down and don't know the opponents. > > > > Regards, > > Steve. > > Steve- > > I always get nervous if I have TPTK or OP to the flop, it is bet to me, I raise and > then someone cold calls behind me. The texture of the board is important here as you > need to look and see what draws are out there (straight or flush). If this happens > to me and the flop is 952 rainbow, then I am pretty sure I am behind and am more > cautious on the turn. If the flop was JT7 with two suits, then the cold caller could > be in there with any number of draws. So, on the turn with the first flop (unless > that card helps me), I would most likely check/call or check fold (unless I have AA > in which case i would probably give it one more test). On the second flop, I bet for > sure if the turn is a blank to make sure I don't give free cards. If a cold caller > raises me then, how I playt depends upon whther or not I now have backdoor outs or > not as well as the size of the pot. > > Also, size of the pot on the flop is important. Even with a coordinated board, if > the pot is small then you are less likely to have someone with a draw call you due to > the poor pot odds. In low limit though, this isn't always true. > > I guess bottom line, there will never be a way to completely know where you stand > and there will be plenty of times that you get raised on the turn where you should > give it up. One thing to remember in LL is that there aren't too many players at > that level that would semi-bluff raise the turn, so if it happens, you are most > likely beat. > > Hope this helps. > > Steve | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 17:48 | ||
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| The only thing I have to say is... Well stated Shorn. I think you covered everything very well and Your input will definitely be helpful. Good job! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, stdioh, 11. Apr 2003 08:47 | ||
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| At the low limits you are generally looking at two important factors: - the players are really, really bad - the players are pretty honest As a result you need to balance the liklihood of a player betting the bejesus out of his top pair no kicker vs. a player betting his 2 pair or set, etc. Basically in a game like this, your overpairs are going to get knocked out a lot. Generally if I am playing in an ultra fishy game like this I'll make a lot of crying calls with hands like that because enough of the time you'll show down against second pair no kicker or some yahoo betting his gutshot draw. Normally, in this position, I have my reads to help me, but when you are playing online it is hard to put a player on a hand, so you have to expect to get beat a little more. Be careful not to fold your hands too much too. An inapropriate call costs you a bet. An inapropriate fold can cost you ten bets. Finding the balance is very difficult sometimes. | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, noiseboy, 11. Apr 2003 10:16 | ||
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| I have the very same problem at the low limits. You have a lot of opponents who are capable of calling a pre-flop raise with ANY two cards and who also slowplay when it is inapropriate to do so. Sometimes you will just run into that wall, the good news is that sometimes when those people slowplay their two pair or set, the board could pair, giving you a higher two pair, or you might pick up a straight or flush draw to go with your pair on the turn. Once in awhile, they will let you in with yourover pair and then you will spike a set, which will likely be better than theirs if you are playing better cards than them in general. So overall, even though it is frustrating when your AA's and KK's get cracked on a ragged board, there are some balancing factors in that sometimes their slowplay will backfire. Also, when they put in that check raise, sometimes you just KNOW they have more than a pair, this is when it pays to be obervant about what kind of hands your opponent has been showing down. Some players will NEVER check raise without a made hand, just like shorn said about check raising as a semibluff being rare at the low levels. Also, these are the same players who will slowplay their pocket AA's and let you catch up, so don't worry if they nail you for a few bets now and then, because they will give it back eventually. For example, I recently played a hand at low limits where this guy was slowplaying his pocket KK's. All I had was pocket 55's and the board came with low cards. He wasn't raising me so I ended up picking up a straight draw and making a wheel, all in a hand that I wouldn't have been in if he had raised. So just keep in mind that aggression, even if it backfires from time to time, is a GOOD thing. One last thing, it's OK to read HEPFAP, but keep in mind that it isn't really written with LL hold'em in mind. You should definitely pick up Carson's Complete Book of Hold'em, or Lee Jones Winning LL Hold'em, or preferably, both, to get different perspectives. Focus mainly on studying implied odds and how to play drawing hands because this is where a lot of your profit will come in this type of game. The most important thing is not to let the bad beats put you on Tilt, because in the low limit games there will be more of them. Hope this helps, the other replies to your post were so good, I almost hesitated to add anything. I really love this forum for that, I have learned a lot here, and things I already knew have been solidified by the excellent explanations that people come up with. | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, shorn, 11. Apr 2003 11:14 | ||
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| Don't sell yourself short noiseboy. You have taught as much or more than you have learned by the posts that I have read of yours. | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, noiseboy, 11. Apr 2003 14:34 | ||
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| Thanks! I really just meant that you guys had already covered most of what I was going to say. It took me a bit to think of anything good to add. | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, magicurt, 14. Apr 2003 02:22 | ||
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| Question? I am new also and find this very helpfull. I am wondering what is"HEPFAP"? You said it is a good read but for higher limits. Thanks Magicurt | ||
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| Re: Getting trapped with top/top or an overpair, Steve S, 14. Apr 2003 05:04 | ||
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| Yay, I can answer this! HEPFAP = "Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players" by David Sklansky. It is considered to be something of a must read if you are considering playing middle-limit or above. WLLH = "Winning Low Limit Hold 'em" by Lee Jones. This is an excellent starting place to learn the basics. Cheers, Steve. | ||
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