|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:12:39 AM PACIFIC |
 Situation quiz, Easy E, 11. Apr 2003 07:12 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| NL tournament- on the bubble. I) You are in the cutoff with a big pair. T50-100 are blinds. 6 people limp. You have T700, others are short-stacked at your table. Should you raise all-in? a) Does the big pair (AA-JJ) matter, as in changing your action? b) Would X amount of expected calls make you fold? c) What would you do with AK, AQ, AJ? II) Same as above, but someone raised to T300 and got 2 callers in front. Would you raise all-in? a) Would you want the blinds in or out? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, stdioh, 11. Apr 2003 08:57 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Very good questions Easy E. I think that a lot of this has to do with the syle of play and certainly the stacks of each opponent are critical information here. Also, how big is the big pair? At bubble time, there is a world of difference between QQ and AA, since QQ vs AK has a much different expectation than AA vs KQ. > I) You are in the cutoff with a big pair. T50-100 are blinds. 6 people > limp. You have T700, others are short-stacked at your table. Should you raise > all-in? First of all, what kind of tournament would get six short stacks limping at bubble time like that? This makes the question really difficult. In this highly unlikely situation, a fold is appropriate with anything but AA and possibly KK. Assuming that you have AA, of course you bet all in since you either want to take the money that is out there now or isolate heads up with any player...at the worst you want to face two opponents here. > a) Does the big pair (AA-JJ) matter, as in changing your action? Absolutely. JJ is something to throw away on the bubble if you are not the smallest stack. QQ in this situation must also go. KK can be played, but you're almost certainly better off waiting to be in the money before playing a hand. Of course AA is something that you have to play here because your odds of winning it are really, really good and winning it is going to put you way ahead of the table. > b) Would X amount of expected calls make you fold? Of course. If you have 6 calls then your chances of winning, even with aces, drop to somewhere below 50%. Survival is much more important than increasing your stack size in this position. As long as the blinds are not about to double you can survive for a long time without playing a hand. This is not the time for random crapshoots. Really, at this point you don't want to play any hand with more than one opponent. > c) What would you do with AK, AQ, AJ? AK would be something that you could definitely limp with here. If you hit it then you have top pair top kicker and should be able to take the whole pot with one all-in bet. > II) Same as above, but someone raised to T300 and got 2 callers in front. > Would you raise all-in? Here you have no choice in the matter at all. With AA you go all in and with any other hand you probably fold. Even KK is too risky here. You have to assume that any ace comes you are beat. The fact that you are certain to face three opponents means that you need aces or you can't play. > a) Would you want the blinds in or out? You always want the blinds out because you always want to play heads up at this point. This is the time for premium made hands because there aren't enough chips to risk on drawing hands. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, Easy E, 11. Apr 2003 12:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This started as a general thought in my head, not a specific hand that I was referring to. Thus, some of the vagueness. Plus, I wanted to see what people would hypothosize/extrapolate (sp?) and what they would add. " I think that a lot of this has to do with the syle of play and certainly the stacks of each opponent are critical information here. " Assume mix of loose/solid, or something BESIDES tight (as to your "limping?" comment below) I was also assuming that the phrase "on the bubble" meant you were the shortest stack, may have been a bad assumption based on your answer and Andy's. In my mind, the other short stacks at your table were all at least T1000 or so. As you say, the stack information affects things....as would, I assume, the prize structure involved. "Also, how big is the big pair? At bubble time, there is a world of difference between QQ and AA, since QQ vs AK has a much different expectation than AA vs KQ. " What would be your answer for each of the big pairs? > I) You are in the cutoff with a big pair. T50-100 are blinds. 6 people > limp. You have T700, others are short-stacked at your table. Should you raise > all-in? "First of all, what kind of tournament would get six short stacks limping at bubble time like that?" An Easy E Legends of the Mind tournament- next question.... "In this highly unlikely situation, a fold is appropriate with anything but AA and possibly KK. Assuming that you have AA, of course you bet all in since you either want to take the money that is out there now or isolate heads up with any player...at the worst you want to face two opponents here. " I wondered if it might be appropriate to dump EVERY hand here, given the number of players that you will probably face and your risk of elimination going up as a result Given that it was doubtful that you'd get off scott-free and would probably have to see the flop... Overly tight, I know- just a thought > a) Does the big pair (AA-JJ) matter, as in changing your action? "Absolutely. JJ is something to throw away on the bubble if you are not the smallest stack. QQ in this situation must also go. KK can be played, but you're almost certainly better off waiting to be in the money before playing a hand. Of course AA is something that you have to play here because your odds of winning it are really, really good and winning it is going to put you way ahead of the table. " What if winning with AA still left you in the bottom 25% or so? > b) Would X amount of expected calls make you fold? Of course. If you have 6 calls then your chances of winning, even with aces, drop to somewhere below 50%. Survival is much more important than increasing your stack size in this position. As long as the blinds are not about to double you can survive for a long time without playing a hand. " 2-3 rounds is a long time? Maybe it is in NL... "This is not the time for random crapshoots. Really, at this point you don't want to play any hand with more than one opponent. " That's what I was wondering, on a general level. "AK would be something that you could definitely limp with here. If you hit it then you have top pair top kicker and should be able to take the whole pot with one all-in bet. " But you wouldn't limp with the big pairs? Thanks | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| > I was also assuming that the phrase "on the bubble" meant you were the shortest > stack, may have been a bad assumption based on your answer and Andy's. Indeed, I took that to mean that as soon as one player is eliminated the rest of the players are getting paid. I didn't assume that you are the smallest stack. Even if you are the smallest though, not too much changes as you have enough money to play for a while. > In my mind, the other short stacks at your table were all at least T1000 or so. As > you say, the stack information affects things....as would, I assume, the prize structure > involved. Indeed, the payout structure is important. If it is a very flat structure then survival is everything. If the vast majority goes to the first two runners, then increasing your stack size (double up or get up) becomes more reasonable. > "In this highly unlikely situation, a fold is appropriate with anything but AA and > possibly KK. Assuming that you have AA, of course you bet all in since you either want to > take the money that is out there now or isolate heads up with any player...at the worst > you want to face two opponents here. " > I wondered if it might be appropriate to dump EVERY hand here, given the number of > players that you will probably face and your risk of elimination going up as a result > Given that it was doubtful that you'd get off scott-free and would probably have to see > the flop... > Overly tight, I know- just a thought The thing is that any one hand is a giant dog to aces - really. Any pair needs to hit a set to beat you (or a random bull hand like an idiotic straight or flush) and any two cards need to hit two pair, a straight, or a flush. You're such a giant favourite heads up that you have to play it. Even if you don't get heads up, you just have such an advantage over the big field. Even if all of them call you, you're still about 50% or so to win the hand adn multiply your stack by 6, which takes you decidedly out of danger for the rest of the tournament. What's the point in waiting for a good hand only to fold your aces when it's crunch time. You can't expect to win the tournament if you don't play your aces so this is a good time to roll the dice rather than after another orbit when you have less money to play with and worse cards. > What if winning with AA still left you in the bottom 25% or so? I don't see how it could. Again, in a real tournament you don't win a pot bigger than 6 big blinds and still end up in the bottom 25% when it is bubble time. Thus it is hard to answer the question in this fantasy game. > 2-3 rounds is a long time? Maybe it is in NL... Sure. If you've got three orbits left, you have a chance to hit something. Of course you are going to be in desperation mode here, so a hand like A9o becomes pure gold that you will raise. When it is time to double up or get up, you can definitely find something to play in 3 orbits. > "AK would be something that you could definitely limp with here. If you hit it then you > have top pair top kicker and should be able to take the whole pot with one all-in bet. " > > But you wouldn't limp with the big pairs? Indeed. This is a bit of a difficult concept to explain, but I'll give it a go. When you have AK if you limp then you are entering the pot and can still survive if you lose, however if you win you will win big. If you hit your ace or king then you bet all in and probably win the big pot. Now when you are playing QQ, it is a much better hand than AK in general, but here it is much worse. If you limp with QQ and an ace of king comes, you are almost certainly going to lose. If no ace or king comes and then you bet all in you are only going to get called by hands that beat you. So you're going to get killed by AA and KK anyway, you may as well put in all your money before the flop so that the other hands can pay you now instead of folding later. Now when you have AK you get a chance to stick it to the smaller pocket pairs because you can fold when you don't hit, but go all-in when you do hit and they will likely feel obligated to put in a call. I guess to sum it up, you can look at it this way. When you hit an ace or king, you have essentially got a hand as good as if you had pocket kings or aces preflop, only if you hit a king, the chance of KK being out there is tiny and the chance of AA being out there is small. You've made your draw and can confidently throw the rest of your money in and you'll be paid off by players who have worse kickers...AJ, AQ, KQ, etc.With the pocket pair, if you are going to put money in then you want to get it in while you have the best of it and try to thin the field to increase your chances of winning unimproved. AK doesn't win unimproved generally. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 11:48 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 14. Apr 2003 11:41 stdioh wrote: > > I was also assuming that the phrase "on the bubble" meant you were the shortest > > stack, may have been a bad assumption based on your answer and Andy's. > > Indeed, I took that to mean that as soon as one player is eliminated the rest of the players > are getting paid. I didn't assume that you are the smallest stack. Even if you are the smallest > though, not too much changes as you have enough money to play for a while. > > > In my mind, the other short stacks at your table were all at least T1000 or so. As > > you say, the stack information affects things....as would, I assume, the prize structure > > involved. > > Indeed, the payout structure is important. If it is a very flat structure then survival is > everything. If the vast majority goes to the first two runners, then increasing your stack size > (double up or get up) becomes more reasonable. > > > "In this highly unlikely situation, a fold is appropriate with anything but AA and > > possibly KK. Assuming that you have AA, of course you bet all in since you either want to > > take the money that is out there now or isolate heads up with any player...at the worst > > you want to face two opponents here. " > > I wondered if it might be appropriate to dump EVERY hand here, given the number of > > players that you will probably face and your risk of elimination going up as a result > > Given that it was doubtful that you'd get off scott-free and would probably have to see > > the flop... > > Overly tight, I know- just a thought > > The thing is that any one hand is a giant dog to aces - really. Any pair needs to hit a set to > beat you (or a random bull hand like an idiotic straight or flush) and any two cards need to > hit two pair, a straight, or a flush. You're such a giant favourite heads up that you have to > play it. Even if you don't get heads up, you just have such an advantage over the big field. > Even if all of them call you, you're still about 50% or so to win the hand adn multiply your > stack by 6, which takes you decidedly out of danger for the rest of the tournament. What's the > point in waiting for a good hand only to fold your aces when it's crunch time. You can't expect > to win the tournament if you don't play your aces so this is a good time to roll the dice > rather than after another orbit when you have less money to play with and worse cards. > > > What if winning with AA still left you in the bottom 25% or so? > > I don't see how it could. Again, in a real tournament you don't win a pot bigger than 6 big > blinds and still end up in the bottom 25% when it is bubble time. Thus it is hard to answer the > question in this fantasy game. > > > 2-3 rounds is a long time? Maybe it is in NL... > > Sure. If you've got three orbits left, you have a chance to hit something. Of course you are > going to be in desperation mode here, so a hand like A9o becomes pure gold that you will raise. > When it is time to double up or get up, you can definitely find something to play in 3 > orbits. > > > "AK would be something that you could definitely limp with here. If you hit it then you > > have top pair top kicker and should be able to take the whole pot with one all-in bet. " > > > > But you wouldn't limp with the big pairs? > > Indeed. This is a bit of a difficult concept to explain, but I'll give it a go. When you have > AK if you limp then you are entering the pot and can still survive if you lose, however if you > win you will win big. If you hit your ace or king then you bet all in and probably win the big > pot. Now when you are playing QQ, it is a much better hand than AK in general, but here it is > much worse. If you limp with QQ and an ace of king comes, you are almost certainly going to > lose. If no ace or king comes and then you bet all in you are only going to get called by hands > that beat you. So you're going to get killed by AA and KK anyway, you may as well put in all > your money before the flop so that the other hands can pay you now instead of folding later. > Now when you have AK you get a chance to stick it to the smaller pocket pairs because you can > fold when you don't hit, but go all-in when you do hit and they will likely feel obligated to > put in a call. > > I guess to sum it up, you can look at it this way. When you hit an ace or king, you have > essentially got a hand as good as if you had pocket kings or aces preflop, only if you hit a > king, the chance of KK being out there is tiny and the chance of AA being out there is small. > You've made your draw and can confidently throw the rest of your money in and you'll be paid > off by players who have worse kickers...AJ, AQ, KQ, etc.With the pocket pair, if you are going > to put money in then you want to get it in while you have the best of it and try to thin the > field to increase your chances of winning unimproved. AK doesn't win unimproved generally. I'm only replying to the very beginning of this response. Being on the "bubble" means that you were one out of the "money". (If they paid ten spots, you came in 11th place, then that is considered "being on the bubble". It has nothing to do with being short-stacked at all, a player with one chip can win a tournament. 4 POKER | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 12:06 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Indeed. In general when it is said that it is "bubble time" or you are playing "on the bubble" it means that the next player to lose loses on the bubble. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 12:07 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Indeed. When you are playing "at bubble time" or "playing on the bubble" it generally means that the next player knocked out of the tournament loses on the bubble and is the last player out to not get paid. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 09:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'd need to know everyone's stack size before deciding what to do with AA or maybe KK. Basically if two or more players are pot committed, and my stack could be covered by two or more players then I would fold everything. Usually at this point in a tourney players are very tight, so six limpers would feel like the twilight zone. If I had the large stack and could not be in danger of busting out, then sure I move all-in. The other hands with six limpers I would prefer to let someone else bust first. If I had AA and the second largest stack with the chip leader having called in front of me, then I'd take my chances and come over the top all-in. The other factor which you didn't mention is the structure of the payouts. The more balanced, the more likely I am to wait for a situation where I'm more of a favorite. If it's really top heavy, then I may take a shot with AA or KK and try to position myself for third place or better depending on my current stack size. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, Easy E, 11. Apr 2003 12:48 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| "I'd need to know everyone's stack size before deciding what to do with AA or maybe KK. Basically if two or more players are pot committed, and my stack could be covered by two or more players then I would fold everything. " As I posted above to stdioh, assume you're the smallest stack and no one is pot-committed, but assume you'll get called if you raise. The rest was good to think about, thanks | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Situation quiz, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 21:05 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| It still depends a lot on whether I think someone else will lose all-in. But being the short stack, in late position even with several more hands before I risk getting blinded out, I would take a shot with AA or KK multiway, but not the other hands. Primarily because I have to play something soon anyway, though I'd prefer whatever it was to be a heads-up situation. It would be nice to win a bunch of chips, but the overriding goal with the short stack is to win a pot and survive until someone else busts. It's easiest to do this against one opponent. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network | Find Vancouver Businesses |
|