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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:29:16 PM PACIFIC |
 NL Hand: Critique's please, shorn, 11. Apr 2003 05:20 | ||
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| Last night, playing on a $50 max buy-in, $0.50-$1 NL table. Table is pretty standard with 4 to 5 people limping most pots, a few stronger players who will raise when appropriate, but mostly passive play pre-flop. I am in the BB with AKo and there are three limpers, the button raises to $1, SB folds. I think about raising the anticipated pot amount if people call ($5) to try and isolate the button, but I am out of position and really have a drawing hand here (playing Monday quarterback, this is where I think i made my mistake, but would like thoughts on all of my play). So, I just call the raise and we see the flop 5-handed. Flop comes 6c7cAh. OK, not the best flop for me, but not terrible either. I make the pot-sized bet here to make drawers pay the price for any straights and club draws out there. One limper and the button call, so we are 5-handed with the pot now $15. Turn card is 9h. I make the decision that the people who are in would not have played 85 or T8 preflop, so I bet all in here (around $20) to win it right there. The limper re-raises me (uh-oh), button folds. River comes Qh and the limper shows me 85o for the straight. I say nice hand (he apologizes), and move on to the next but can't help thinking that I was stupid not to make a pot-sized raise pre-flop to at least isolate the button if not win it there because the re is no way the limper would have called that bet. Did I play this wrong by just calling pre-flop (I think I played OK post-flop but would appreciate any other thoughts) or did I just get unlucky? Thanks, Steve | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, shorn, 11. Apr 2003 05:22 | ||
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| Sorry...one mistake on my post. We were 3-handed to see the turn card, not 5-handed. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, stdioh, 11. Apr 2003 09:16 | ||
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| Your first mistake was not raising preflop with your AK. You must raise this hand for value. Yes, it is a drawing hand, but it draws to a small field. This hand plays great heads up since if you hit then you are almost certainly winning and it you don't hit, it is easy to throw away. And if neither of you hit and your opponent is not on a pair then you still take down what is in the pot (unless you get bluffed, but that's another story). So you let the 58 in and he punished you. Now he played very stupidly by not folding to your pot sized bet, but stupid players make us our money. The fact of the matter is that you *want* him to call there. You make a bet so big that he shouldn't call, but if he does then he is paying you off. Now when the straight comes you know a few things, but you made your second mistake: you bet the turn. You have top pair and top kicker, but two players were willing to call you. Now a card comes that makes a straight. So who beats you? Any idiot who made the straight beats you, but more importantly, anybody who was already beating you beats you. What if somebody had flopped a set? They see you bet the ace and decide to extract maximum profit from you and since you are out of position this is easy, so they just call the pot sized bet (which screams that you are on an ace, but not AA - especially with your preflop limp). By going all in on the turn you play right into this tactic. The correct thing to do there is check (correct is a loosely defined word in poker, so don't take this the wrong way). Now if another player makes a bet there, you're almost certainly beat...possibly by a set. All you have to worry about then is that somebody has a worse ace with a flush draw (and possibly a straight draw too). Even then, you could have somebody who came in with Ac9c, called your bet with top pair, poor kicker, nut flush draw, and now they have just made two pair. I would say that it is appropriate here to fold to a pot sized bet on the turn here. There are just too many ways to beat you here and you have only 5 outs, 3 of which are probably no good. You might be drawing dead (as in this case). This does constitute a difficult fold, but it is a necessary one. Now maybe you are worried about a backdoor flush coming with the hearts, but my question then is who would call without a good reason on the flop and fold to your bet on the turn after they have made a heart draw? Essentially you're looking to keep the pressure on, but it is too late. If you do bet the turn, a pot sized bet (or all-in) is really a bad idea. It should be a small bet to suck a little money out of players that you have dominated, but one that you can afford to throw away if you are grossly reraised. I would just as soon check here though and check the river. on 11. Apr 2003 05:20 shorn wrote: > Last night, playing on a $50 max buy-in, $0.50-$1 NL table. Table is pretty > standard with 4 to 5 people limping most pots, a few stronger players who will > raise when appropriate, but mostly passive play pre-flop. I am in the BB with > AKo and there are three limpers, the button raises to $1, SB folds. I think > about raising the anticipated pot amount if people call ($5) to try and isolate > the button, but I am out of position and really have a drawing hand here > (playing Monday quarterback, this is where I think i made my mistake, but would > like thoughts on all of my play). So, I just call the raise and we see the flop > 5-handed. > > Flop comes 6c7cAh. OK, not the best flop for me, but not terrible either. I > make the pot-sized bet here to make drawers pay the price for any straights and > club draws out there. One limper and the button call, so we are 5-handed with > the pot now $15. Turn card is 9h. I make the decision that the people who are > in would not have played 85 or T8 preflop, so I bet all in here (around $20) to > win it right there. The limper re-raises me (uh-oh), button folds. River comes > Qh and the limper shows me 85o for the straight. > > I say nice hand (he apologizes), and move on to the next but can't help > thinking that I was stupid not to make a pot-sized raise pre-flop to at least > isolate the button if not win it there because the re is no way the limper would > have called that bet. Did I play this wrong by just calling pre-flop (I think I > played OK post-flop but would appreciate any other thoughts) or did I just get > unlucky? > > Thanks, > > Steve | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, shorn, 11. Apr 2003 09:31 | ||
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| Thanks buddy. As I have stated before, NL is my worst game and your analysis proves it. I think if I had raised preflop, I would have isolated the button and then I could have forced him to lay it down on the flop. I really appreciate your comments on my turn play because that makes sense...in effect I blew the rest of my stack on a hand that might have been a loser on the flop, but because I let the guys in pre-flop and the gutshot straight card hit, it is definitely a loser on the turn. Yikers...I have a lot to learn to play NL correctly! So I guess the idea is to punish limpers with AK pre-flop so that you can limit the field. I unfortunately applied limit logic here (out of position, 5 players so i am giving implied odds) when I didn't have to because I could have forced people out with a raise. Thanks again. Steve | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, stdioh, 11. Apr 2003 09:40 | ||
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| Glad my words were some help. Don't take them the wrong way either. I think you played the hand ok - just that it could have been played better. Anyhow, I find that it is one big mistake people make when they try to play limit like nolimit or vice versa. Yes, you can have five limpers, but a big raise will still chase a bunch out. In a limit game all you are doing is adding money to the pot when your AK doesn't look that giantly sunny yet. Still, this is nothing compared to watching the ludicrous mistakes that some very competent nolimit players make when they come down to limit. Usually those mistakes invlove somebody making a draw and then pounding on their set and a big gripe about, "You should have folded that crap on the flop." Nope - good play. I am always amused when somebody gripes about me drawing to a gutshot when I have pot odds to do so. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 09:50 | ||
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| I would have handled it differently on the flop. Check and risk a free card, but if anyone bets then I'd make a raise about triple the pot size. If it was checked around, then I'd lead into the nine on the turn with a pot sized bet. I'm assuming everyone in the hand would have enough money to cover these bets. AK preflop especially from the blinds isn't much against four opponents, I would have smooth called the small raise from the button here too. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, stdioh, 11. Apr 2003 09:56 | ||
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| The whole point of raising here is not for value, but to fold limpers. AK isn't much in a 5-handed game, but by raising you increase the money in the pot *and* drive out some oppoenents. It is not limit where everybody will come in to the raise. A raise of 5 times the big blind here should leave you with no more than 2 callers. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:17 | ||
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| I know it's not limit, and you have a valid point. I'm not familiar enough with such a tiny blind game that I figured he wouldn't loose enough of the limpers with a preflop reraise to make it worthwhile out of position. Will they really fold to a pot sized reraise if it's just another $3.50 to see the flop? Maybe I should play some of these limited buy-in games. 85o limpers sound interesting. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, noiseboy, 11. Apr 2003 11:07 | ||
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| Yeah, I'm just starting out in No Limit and where I play around 50% of the people stay to see the flop. I'm not a No limit player, but that's loose for a limit game, and I know you are supposed to play tighter in No Limit. The games are juicy, but also very dangerous because the suckouts can be costly. Also, it's tricky to put people on a hand when it's so loose. The other day, I called someone's all-in with KK's and got broke to the AA's, this was a guy who went all-in at the drop of a hat, and I happened to catch him when he really did have a hand! On the other hand, I went all-in with the AA's one time and got four (!) callers and won a good sized pot. Basically, the games are pretty crazy and fun. I'm not sure how good practice they are for a REAL no limit game where everyone knows what they are doing, but you've got to start somewhere. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 11:11 | ||
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| My approach would be to buy-in for about half the maximum or around an average stack size. Try to double or triple up, and get out. Then go back on the list if I wanted to play more. Does anyone have a similar game strategy that they use? | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, stdioh, 11. Apr 2003 11:55 | ||
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| Good point...it really depends on table texture. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, noiseboy, 11. Apr 2003 10:49 | ||
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| I'm just starting out in no limit, and goddam it is one RISKY game. I'm so addicted, even though I'm terrible. I have no advice for you because I'm a newbie too, and will start posting some of my hand histories here, maybe stdioh and the other no limit players here can turn us both into sharks at no limit. I think the $50 buy in tables are great because they could be very profitable once you know what you are doing (which I don't) because of the low blinds you can really sit around and wait for some good cards. I'm really just amazed at how different the two games are because I think I have a relatively good grasp of limit hold'em, even though I don't always make the correct decision in the heat of the moment, I can usually figure out where my mistakes are, but no limit seems like a mysterious game of Russian Roulette, where you are never sure which chamber has the bullet. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, shorn, 11. Apr 2003 11:24 | ||
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| I am trying to improve as well. stdioh has got great insight and appears to have played a lot of NL, so I definitely respect what he says. And, it makes sense too. I played the hand I posted like a loser. I am begiinign to understand that when you have the ability to force others out by making a huge bet with good cards, you damn well better do it or you risk your whole stack. So, I think I need to play a bit tighter before entering a pot and then play more aggressively when i have the goods. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, stdioh, 11. Apr 2003 11:56 | ||
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| In all fairness, my NL game needs a lot of work. Mostly I play in cash ring games. As for no limit, my tournament play is a lot better than my cash game play. Mostly I think that is because I don't like the swings and risk of no-limit. I'm much happier to grind out my one big bet per hour in a ring game. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 16:22 | ||
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| Hey, Even though AK is a drawing hand it still is a big hand, and maybe by putting in an additional raise you could have driven out the limpers and played this hand heads up with the button. Yes, You are out of position but many times a player will raise with a vast number of holdings on the button, (IE,) QK,10J suited, AXsuited, small pairs etc.) and with that being said , your AK will be strong enough to play back at him heads up. He is facing a re-raise from one of the blinds, there were already several limpers, he has to figure you have a big hand here, and by playing it strong you might not even have to hit much of anything on the flop. If he's holding a small pair and doesn't hit the flop you might win the pot uncontested. If he has QKsuited or a similar hand, he must hit the flop still leaving you with cards that can beat him. If he is holding AX then you are still the favorite. (IMO), AK is a strong hand and will play very well heads up, and I think (though not having much experience in NL), I'd rather take this holding and play it against one player rather then to buck heads with too many others in the hand. (It would just be too hard to know where I stood ). 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 21:18 | ||
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| I'd favor the preflop reraise out of the blind more if the button had made a larger original raise. Something like a pot sized raise which changes the dynamics entirely. With such a negligible raise, I'd rather see the flop and checkraise over the top if it looks decent. This should also wake up any set out there and let me escape relatively cheap. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, Olly, 17. Apr 2003 02:24 | ||
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| there is NO WAY you should reraise before the flop. Put it this way - this player would be making a mistake to call the button's dollar raise right? Mistakes are what you want your opponent to make. If you reraise you are FORCING him to make a CORRECT play by folding, and DENYING him the chance to make a mistake by calling the dollar raise. Why? If he wants to call with that rag then let him in. On the flop check and raise the button's bet all-in. | ||
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| Re: NL Hand: Critique's please, shorn, 17. Apr 2003 06:40 | ||
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| on 17. Apr 2003 02:24 Olly wrote: > there is NO WAY you should reraise before the flop. Put it this way - this player > would be making a mistake to call the button's dollar raise right? Mistakes are what > you want your opponent to make. If you reraise you are FORCING him to make a CORRECT > play by folding, and DENYING him the chance to make a mistake by calling the dollar > raise. Why? If he wants to call with that rag then let him in. > On the flop check and raise the button's bet all-in. Actually, the button was raising to $1 from $0.50 which everyone else had called. So, the others were probably getting the implied odds to call after his raise when I just called. Granted, the 85o shouldn't have been in in the first place, but only by re-raising would I force him to be making a mistake to call. Interesting thought that you point out though... | ||
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