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Server Time: 10/6/2008 4:35:34 PM PACIFIC |
 Playing someone unreadable, Andrew Wells, 10. Apr 2003 21:29 | ||
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| I didn't have my "A" game tonight, having made a series of bad decisions. I knew the feature game 10-20 hold'em wouldn't start until 6:00 but had to get to the casino before 3:30 to get on the list. There was an open seat in a 1-5 Stud game that had a couple of players who were not senior citizens, so I thought it might be okay to spend some time waiting for the hold'em game to start. Nope, played like a zoo monkey. Dug a hole in the rock garden instead. Should have planned to get a comp for a meal and finish the morning paper, but I ate before I left. The 10-20 wasn't much of a game, but I decided to give it several hours to see if someone would get stuck or a live one would fill an open seat. Everyone was playing tight/aggressive except for an old man on permanent tilt playing tight/passive three seats to my right, and an action player three seats to my left. The action player wasn't your ordinary maniac type, but did get involved in about every other hand. He was also unreadable, would mix it up with unusual raises or limp with raising hands. He also played some hands normally. He did a lot of talking designed to convince you that he was just a sucker. I decided that it was all acting, so if I did pick up on something he said I would do the opposite of what I thought he wanted. He was also one of those players who get stimulated by bluffing, since he would show some trash he raised with when successful. But what I also saw were some half way decent hands that were just played peculiarly. In short, you simply couldn't read him unless he gave a verbal tell. The game played fairly tight with many hands not going beyond the flop, but I had managed to get unstuck. No one seemed like they were going to tilt much except the old man, but he's always a sourpuss and wasn't loosening up. So I decided to give it one more orbit. The action player opened for a raise and everyone folded to me in the big blind. I have JsJc which I don't like to three bet heads up out of position, so we look at a flop of 7d 6h 3c instead. Ordinarily I would just lead with a bet here and maybe I should have, but I know I'm going to play this out and I don't want to get raised on the flop if a big card comes on the turn. I also don't want to checkraise since I'm not sure he'll just call and fold overcards on the turn. I think I'll let him drive for awhile and maybe he'll overplay it, so I go passive and check/call. The turn pairs the board with the 3s. I could bet here and maybe I should have, but I'm thinking it may look too much like I was slowplaying a set on the flop (though I wouldn't have). I also expect him to continue to bet many hands I have beat. So I decide to let him continue to think I have overcards probably including an ace, in case he has something like KQ that he may want to bluff with on the river. If I checkraise the turn, I think I either take it right there or I get reraised. He could have me drawing dead to a jack after all, but this player is going to get paid off if that's the case. After check/calling the turn (I'm really not normally this passive), the river brings the 5d. Should I check and hope he'll bluff at me, or bet and hope he'll call with a worse hand? Maybe he'll stick in a raise with a worse hand, but I'm the big blind so it's not impossible that board helped me. No one else who was in the big blind against him for a raise heads-up let him take it without seeing the flop, so why should he assume I was necessarily unpaired? We both checked and my jacks were good. The only thing that made me think that I might have got the most out of this hand was his post-mortem laugh, and comment that I never made a play. Did I play it like a fish? | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, 4 POKER, 10. Apr 2003 22:07 | ||
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| Why let an aggresive (somewhat loose, maniac) bully you in a hand? If you feel that you have the best of it, let him know that. Don't let him get there cheaply just to spike an overcard on the river. There are two ways to play your hand on the flop. One, is to lead right into him telling him that you have something. And two is to check- raise the flop in hoping that he surrenders his hand. Because this type of player will raise with a vast number of "holdings", you really then must rely on the strength of your own hand. When you're unable to read a particular player, your best approach is straightfoward poker. (as fancy plays will not work with this type). If he does have overcards to the flop, (and more then likely he does), then he will continue with his calls anyway. But to let him get there cheaply because you didn't want to lose him is a mistake. Yes, JJ is a good hand heads up with a small and unconnecting flop, however the hand should be played strong here as to avoid danger cards showing up on the turn and river. Don't worry if you take the pot right then and there, it's better to win a small one then to lose a bigger one just because you wanted him to bet your hand for you! JJ is vulnerable, play it strong. If he happens to hold an overpair to your JJ, well then you were beat anyway- Remember, there's nothing that a loose-aggresive maniac loves more then to be able to bully his opponents; show him that you won't be intimidated by his actions. If you feel in your gut that you've got the best of it, then tell him that- play your hand strong, right from the start. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, shorn, 11. Apr 2003 05:06 | ||
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| I agree with 4 Poker here. I think part of the problem was that you said you weren't sharp the whole session and at this point you were about even so you might have been trying to squeeze a few more bets of profit from this one. However, there are just too many cards that can beat you for you to check the flop and turn here. I probably would have tried to CR the flop and if he checked behind me, I would have definitely bet the turn. Based on his laugh at the end, he probably had overcards (did you see his hand?), so you potentially had given him 2 free shots. With JJ in EP, take the small profit on the flop and run... | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:10 | ||
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| I had decided to leave soon, and was about even. That's probably the real reason I didn't attack with this hand. I wasn't willing to leave with a bigger loss. This morning I see things differently. It's just plain dumb to let that affect my play of the hand. Oh well, at least I'm sure I made the right choice to leave. | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:40 | ||
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| I did this because he was also the type of player who gets off on showing a bluff. I thought I'd just let him bluff all the way to the river, sometimes that's the best way to handle it. Give me the situation again, so I can bet and reraise on the flop. I just sucked yesterday, it can happen to anyone. | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, stdioh, 11. Apr 2003 09:26 | ||
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| The short answer is yes. You played this like a fish. Sorry. The problem is that you had good cards and got scared by the radom raiser. I think that three betting here preflop would have been great. Yes, jacks aren't a three betting hand, but this is a bet for value. Now when you flop the overpair, this is the second best thing that can happen to your jacks. Bet them. Raise them. Play them hard. Now because of his randomness, I think it is ok to turn down the volume when the scare card comes on the river and just call down a bet from him. After all, he could have raised with A4 or 44 or anything for all you know. For that matter he could have a three, though thas is a lot less likely because there are only two of them left so 33 becomes unlikely. You've got to make players like this pay for their random crap. Your fear made his unconventional play profitable because he didn't get smacked hard here. Also, you seem afraid that you'll fold him if you play hard. So? Take the money that is in the pot and move on to another hand. Yeah, you've got him, but sometimes it isn't worth pulling him along for a bet here and a bet there if he has a reasonable chance of hitting something. If you had aces it might be a little different, but if he does have overcards to you, then really you should be happy to get the money that is in there if you can. I say play hard and feel good if you take it. Jacks don't make *that* much money on average. They are a marginally premium hand and I don't think you should expect too much out of them. Also, don't be afraid of folding if he plays back at you hard. Because you never challenged him, you couldn't get a read on him. If he played back hard perhaps he had a higher overpair? Maniacs are entitled to aces just as much as real players are. | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., TKarrde, 11. Apr 2003 10:18 | ||
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| Still VERY new at this but last night playing in my 25¢-50¢ game I had two great hands. Don't remember the first, but the second was a pair of Jacks that saw a QJx rainbow with only one other player. I bet it out like crazy. Lee Jones told me too. :) But he kept coming back at me. On the flop we capped it. The river was a blank and we capped it. By the time he made that 3rd bet on the river I was thinking he MUST have QQ. But he didn't. Cost me that 4th bet. No big deal. But there were other occassios that people would bet at me big, I don't have the nuts but I have a big hand, and I become a calling station, and scoop up a little pot in the end. Help! Also, being new and all... would it be really rude to ask to see a players cards after he mucks them in a situation like this (in a live game)? Thanks, TK | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:33 | ||
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| It would be considered offensive in that 10-20 game, especially after you take the pot. It's information you're not entitled to unless the player wants to give it. In a friendly low limit game it might be okay to ask the player what he had. Somtimes when the betting is multiway and someone folds on the river, such a question is interpreted as "I think you're cheating to make the pot bigger for your friend, let me see your hand so I know you had good reason to be making those raises." | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., TKarrde, 11. Apr 2003 10:37 | ||
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| on 11. Apr 2003 10:33 Andrew Wells wrote: > It's information you're not entitled to unless the player wants to give it. Why is that?? (Remember I am new.) If a guy bets the river and I call I figure that I PAID to see his cards. If I fold... fine. But if I am risking my money I feel entitled. Obviously I have never done this. But has been a thought stuck in my head. Is there any rule on this? Or is it just etiquette? TK | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:44 | ||
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| That's a little different. You called his bet, he didn't fold to yours. When someone doesn't show their hand when I'm entitled to see it, I sometimes say "Show your hand or throw it in the muck." It is bad form to ask to see a hand that folds to a bet on the river though. In your JJ example he called your last bet on the river, so you were first to show down. If he's beat, he's entitled to fold without showing. | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., TKarrde, 11. Apr 2003 10:48 | ||
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| Oh, I never meant a folded hand. But if I bet, he raises, I make it three, and he makes it four and I call..... If I show and he mucks... can I ask to see them if I "just gotta know"??? | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:51 | ||
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| You can ask to see them since he was supposed to show down first. However you should have waited for him to expose his cards first. Since you didn't wait, you imply you don't need to see them. | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., TKarrde, 11. Apr 2003 10:53 | ||
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| So if I bet, and he calls.... I show... and he mucks... I can't ask to see them? Sorry for all the ignorant questions but this is very helpful. TK | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:55 | ||
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| You can ask, but some players would consider it rude. | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., TKarrde, 11. Apr 2003 10:47 | ||
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| Side question... is there a specifica order to show cards at a showdown? Betting order? Because in a live game it seems random. On the internet it seems that only the winning cards are shown. Thanks, TK | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:48 | ||
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| The player who makes the last bet or raise shows down first. | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., shorn, 11. Apr 2003 11:19 | ||
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| on 11. Apr 2003 10:48 Andrew Wells wrote: > The player who makes the last bet or raise shows down first. Just to add to your earlier question about earning the right to see. While it may be true that you have paid to see his hand at the end, the others at the table have not and by forcing him to show a hand that he doesn't want to gives others information that they didn't pay for. Also, if he was on a stone cold bluff the whole hand, it can embarrass him in front of everyone. Finally, if he is a really weak player and you are a strong player, you don't want to embarrass him because then he might leave and POOF! There goes your profit center... | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., TKarrde, 11. Apr 2003 11:49 | ||
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| Great reply! Never thought about the rest of the table.... let alone scaring away the cash cow!! Thanks! TK | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:47 | ||
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| Great post shorn. Concise and spot on. Never make the fish feel bad - they are your bread and butter. | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., Schuster, 12. Apr 2003 01:10 | ||
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| on 11. Apr 2003 10:47 TKarrde wrote: > Side question... is there a specifica order to show cards at a showdown? Betting order? Because in a > live game it seems random. On the internet it seems that only the winning cards are shown. > > Thanks, > > TK Yep, it's last to bet or raise on the final betting round, as Andrew mentioned. But, the big bit of wisdom here is this! It seems that only the winning cards are shown because more often than not, the winning cards are the one who made the last aggressive action. It may be different at high limits, but I noticed this one day at the low limit online table, and it really made me think!! Lee | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., 4 POKER, 12. Apr 2003 02:26 | ||
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| In answer to your question, When you play live, if you're playing hold-em or stud, the last aggressor shows first. If your playing Omaha, the first person to act shows his cards first, regardless of whether they were the last aggressive bettor or not. It really isn't random at all. However, when you play on-line it doesn't matter which game you are playing in, the last aggressor will always show his cards first. When you play on line, there is an option box that will say, Muck all losing hands. So if you call someone's bet on the last card, and there are several people in the hand, if just one of those hands beats yours, and you are behind them in the betting order, then your hand will just be folded. Noone will see it. (As long as you have checked that box off to do so). You have two options there- you can muck all of your losing hands or you can chose to show all hands, losers as well as winners. In my opinion, I think you should always have the box checked off "Muck all losing hands".There is no reason why you should show someone what you had. Even if you wanted to show them that you just had a big hand, don't allow anyone to see how you played your hand. It can't help you at all. And don't worry, the computer does not make mistakes when it comes to pushing the pot to its rightful owner!! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., 4 POKER, 12. Apr 2003 06:25 | ||
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| I need to re-state something I wrote about being the last aggressor in omaha, when playing live poker. I said that the person who is first to act shows his cards first... What I meant to say is, as long as the river was checked around then yes, the first to act would show his hand. Where as in holdem, it doesn't matter if the last card was checked or not, the last aggressor of that hand shows first. I feel like I'm just rambling on here, sorry! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:45 | ||
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| The rule (at most casinos) is that you are entitled to see any called hand if you ask the dealer to see it. If you do it once here and there when somebody was betting heavilly, etc, then it's not going to be taken as an insult, in general. If you do it a lot then people will think you are a jerk. If you do it a lot you'll probably have all of your hands exposed by players who want to pick at you ... and among other things, that slows down the game and everybody pays for it with session fees and by making less profit per hour. | ||
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| Re: Talking of fear..., 4 POKER, 12. Apr 2003 04:07 | ||
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| on 11. Apr 2003 10:18 TKarrde wrote: > Still VERY new at this but last night playing in my 25¢-50¢ game I had two great hands. > Don't remember the first, but the second was a pair of Jacks that saw a QJx rainbow with > only one other player. I bet it out like crazy. Lee Jones told me too. :) But he kept > coming back at me. On the flop we capped it. The river was a blank and we capped it. By > the time he made that 3rd bet on the river I was thinking he MUST have QQ. But he didn't. > Cost me that 4th bet. No big deal. But there were other occassios that people would bet > at me big, I don't have the nuts but I have a big hand, and I become a calling station, > and scoop up a little pot in the end. > > Help! > > Also, being new and all... would it be really rude to ask to see a players cards after > he mucks them in a situation like this (in a live game)? > > Thanks, > > TK Hi TK, Remember that a part of poker is making moves, bluffing, etc. etc. etc. There is no need to ask the dealer to have someone's cards turned over. If there were several people involved with multiple raises and you lost the hand, to ask another player who also lost would only embarrass him. Just remember, What goes around, comes around". I'm sure you wouldn't want someone to do that to you. Losing a hand is bad enough, just leave it at that and move on. Here's another side to that story... If you were the WINNER of that hand and decided to ask the dealer or the player involved what he had, if that player misread his hand and when the dealer turns it up and it winds up being the best hand... you lose! (even if the chips were already awarded to you; if the player's hand had not reached the muck yet, you would have to forfeit the pot to the rightful owner. When i first started to play hold-em, I was involved in this pretty big pot. When the action was completed at the end of the hand, I was so disgusted that I missed my flush I didn't even notice that i had made two pair. Well, I almost tossed my hand into the muck but right before I was able to do that, the winner of the hand decided that he wanted to see my hand. I had no choice but to turn it over(if the winner asks to see a hand, you must turn it over- that is the only player at the table that can request it). That being said, I turned over my hand, and the dealer said, "You have two pair". The original winner only had one pair! But he was being cute or so he thought by trying to needle me after losing the hand, and he got his just desserts--- I won the pot because of his big mouth! After that, I made it a rule to NEVER ask another player to turn his hand up- If I won the pot, well that's good enough for me. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, Andrew Wells, 11. Apr 2003 10:25 | ||
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| I know I was playing badly, thanks for the corroboration. Not being sarcastic. I think that dumb stud session affected my hold'em game more than I knew at the time. Easy to see it clearer this morning. Obviously I have bad days too, I didn't deserve to have those jacks hold up. | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 23:22 | ||
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| Hi Andrew, Yes, We all have bad days where we're not thinking clearly. Sometimes losing in a previous session can trigger that, but realizing that and putting it behind you is the best thing you can do. It seems to me that you're on the right track; understanding and correcting our mistakes only adds to our discipline, making it stronger then it was. As for myself, Discipline is the #1 thing you should possess BEFORE you sit down in a poker game... Every single time---NO EXCEPTIONS. Good luck, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, Andrew Wells, 12. Apr 2003 20:17 | ||
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| I've been playing full time for a living for nearly two and a half years, preceeded by almost ten years of supplemental income part time. That made the transition accomplishable. I wouldn't have done it if I wasn't 100% sure I'm a favorite to enter any game I select and leave ahead. Playing consistently solid poker, but I will always look for areas of improvement. Four years ago I would have stayed in that game, but I have certainly learned when to leave. That may be one of the hardest things a player can ever master, how to quit for the day plus or minus. No one plays their best every single time, and I'm not ashamed to post some of my dubious play here. | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, 4 POKER, 12. Apr 2003 21:17 | ||
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| on 12. Apr 2003 20:17 Andrew Wells wrote: > I've been playing full time for a living for nearly two and a half years, preceeded by almost ten > years of supplemental income part time. That made the transition accomplishable. I wouldn't have > done it if I wasn't 100% sure I'm a favorite to enter any game I select and leave ahead. Playing > consistently solid poker, but I will always look for areas of improvement. Four years ago I would > have stayed in that game, but I have certainly learned when to leave. That may be one of the hardest > things a player can ever master, how to quit for the day plus or minus. No one plays their best > every single time, and I'm not ashamed to post some of my dubious play here. I am saying that I do agree with you. Leaving a game a loser is part of what having discipline is all about. Many players possess incredible poker skills and that's great, but if they're not willing to leave a game when they should, (playing too many hours, lack of sleep, not willing to take a loss,etc. etc.), then these players lack in something that is crutial in poker...and that's discipline. We all have bad days, we all wish we could have played our hands differently sometimes, those minor mistakes correct themselves. It is when we think that we are unbeatable in a game and lose track of why we are there in the first place(and that is to make money), that we lose sight on the big picture. Poker is a lifetime game requirring a lifetime commitment, and when we chose to make the correct decissions by never losing our discipline or playing above our bankroll,(which is a big part of having discipline), then and only then will we succeed. | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:49 | ||
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| You are either very old or wise beyond your years. Few players can stand up from a bad game when they are winning a lot *OR* when they are losing a lot. I'm learning to do this myself, but it takes a constant presence of mind. | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, 4 POKER, 14. Apr 2003 11:57 | ||
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| on 14. Apr 2003 11:49 stdioh wrote: > You are either very old or wise beyond your years. Few players can stand up from a bad game when they are > winning a lot *OR* when they are losing a lot. I'm learning to do this myself, but it takes a constant > presence of mind. BOTH !!!! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, SendMoney, 12. Apr 2003 05:02 | ||
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| I had the same situation against a bully type heads up. I had 10-10 on the button and he led out under the gun with a raise, everyone folded to me and I called, the flop comes 2 3 7 rainbow. He bets out on the flop, I call, turn bring an 8, he bets out, I call. River brings a 9 with no possible flush. He bets out again, I decide to call since I'm still over the board and I know he's the type to bet out as The Mighty after he misses with AK or AQ when he's beat trying to steal. I call. He turns over KK, I muck my 10-10. Later I put him on tilt and broke him by calling with bottom pair with 3-4 offsuite and caught a 4 on the river for trips beating his KJ two pair on the flop. I wasn't on tilt but decided to play junk when he was bullying my big blind one too many times. My premium hands were getting butchered and sucked out on (losing with top pair, ace kicker, two pair, or even a set to junky 10-2s and J-3s flush draws) - so I decided to send some pain back his way. The bully didn't last long after that. | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, Andrew Wells, 12. Apr 2003 20:26 | ||
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| Sometimes I'll play back at them, sometimes I just let them bet themselves silly. This one I could have played better out of position with a bet/reraise on the flop. JJ was beatable but likely to have been the best hand on the flop. He could have taken a free card on the turn and made it worse for me. | ||
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| Re: Playing someone unreadable, stdioh, 14. Apr 2003 11:51 | ||
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| I think it would have been more correct to reraise with your TT. Then if he three-bets you can probably let it go on the flop. | ||
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