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Server Time: 8/30/2008 2:07:00 AM PACIFIC |
 First 2 Cards, DoctaJones, 9. Apr 2003 23:52 | ||
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| I am fairly new to poker though I've done a bit of reading. I realize that the cards you play pre-flop are determined in large part by your position. But say you're in late position with 10 9 offsuit and there have already been 2 raises one from early and one from middle, do you still enter? | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, 4 POKER, 10. Apr 2003 00:23 | ||
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| In my opinion, calling two bets cold with 9-10 offsuit will not be a money maker for you overall. (there will be times for those moves, but not now). Don't forget, you are new to poker and playing those type of hands in bad situations will only lead to disaster. As a beginner to the game, I can only tell you that YOUR best approach will be to play premium starting hands, straightfoward plays, and paying close attention to the other players and their style of play. Keep your eyes and ears open at all times; you can learn alot about a player just from observing them. When you have a lot more experience playing the game, then you will be able to throw in some fancy and deceptive plays of your own! I hope you find this helpful--- it's very basic, but the "basics should be very important to you right now. GOOD LUCK, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, 4 POKER, 10. Apr 2003 02:43 | ||
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| on 10. Apr 2003 00:23 4 POKER wrote: > In my opinion, > calling two bets cold with 9-10 offsuit will not be a money maker for you overall. > (there will be times for those moves, but not now). > Don't forget, you are new to poker and playing those type of hands in bad situations > will only lead to disaster. very true!! > As a beginner to the game, I can only tell you that YOUR best approach will be to > play premium starting hands, straightfoward plays, > and paying close attention to the other players and their style of play. > Keep your eyes and ears open at all times; you can learn alot about a player just > from observing them. > > When you have a lot more experience playing the game, then you will be able to throw > in some fancy and deceptive plays of your own! > > I hope you find this helpful--- it's very basic, but the "basics should be very > important to you right now. > > GOOD LUCK, > 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, shorn, 10. Apr 2003 05:11 | ||
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| T-9 off here is a definite muck. It may look somewhat pretty and be connected, but with two raises in front of you, the flop must most likely hit you twice (or you hit the nut straight) for you to win. In fact, calling with this hand to 1 raise is very marginal (IMO). This hand needs a lot of company, say 5 or 6 people with no raise to be profitable in the long run and you should still only play it form late position (or very late middle position) where there is less fear of a raise behind you. | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, Easy E, 10. Apr 2003 06:18 | ||
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| Okay, if you're going to applaud your OWN posts, it's time to increase the bipolar medication.... :0 | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, 4 POKER, 10. Apr 2003 06:54 | ||
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| on 10. Apr 2003 06:18 Easy E wrote: > Okay, if you're going to applaud your OWN posts, it's time to increase the bipolar > medication.... > > :0 | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, 4 POKER, 10. Apr 2003 06:57 | ||
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| Easy, That second post was a mistake, it was supposed to be in reply to a different post. I wasn't replying to my own post, thank you very much! Don't be so harsh. 4 poker | ||
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| C'mon, if you can't have a little fun..., Easy E, 10. Apr 2003 07:28 | ||
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| .. why play? Besides, that wasn't even in the NEIGHBORHOOD of harsh.... | ||
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| Very rarely...., Easy E, 10. Apr 2003 06:20 | ||
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| and in your case, at this point, NEVER! T9s would be questionable. Maybe if you really knew the players, or you were playing big bet poker (where reward equals risk better) and the raises were small..... but for now, as others posted, stay away from marginal hands when facing even ONE raise! Pick that skill up later when you have a better feeling for the game (it takes some experience) | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 08:03 | ||
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| I would almost never ever play those cards there. Yes, your position is wonderful, but you are on a drawing hand and drawing hands only play well when there are lots of players in the hand. Think of it this way. Because of the raises out there, there is a very good chance that there is a high pocket pair out there. Now what if you hit your 9 or 10 as the high card on the flop? You are still probably no good. Thus you need to hit at least 2 pair...and if you're looking to hit 2 pair, then any two cards will do. Thus you muck. Now you have a shot at hitting a straight with these cards, but it is very unlikely to come. Therefore if you are going invest money in looking for the straight you want to know that you will have a big payday if you actually hit it. That means that you want in only if there are a lot of players. And since you don't have outs for a flush, remember that your straight might come and be no good. Now lets draw a highly fictional situation. You're at a table with a couple of maniacs. Maniac 1 raises under the gun, but he raises every hand, so his raises mean nothing. Then everybody calls around to the cutoff and he actually has a good hand, so he raises for value and to drive out the rest of the players. Now you might want to call here, since you're going to get paid off if you make your hand, but it is easy to release if you don't. It will almost certainly be capped preflop, but you've got at least 8 opponents. In this rare case, I would say you can call here, but it is the sort of situation that you should basically never see. Generally you shouldn't be calling a three-bet cold without pocket kings, pocket aces, or AK - unless there are a lot of players in...in which case you really should have at least suited connectors to call witha a drawing hand. Suited one gappers if they are higher. For instance something like KJs is marginally playable here, but I would still just as soon chuck it. Hope that helps. | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, shorn, 10. Apr 2003 08:07 | ||
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| Good analysis stdioh. I would probably not call 3-bets cold with AK (unless the raisers were maniacs both). But, that's just me. Seems like whenever I do something like that, the friggin flop comes 522 rainbow or some crapola like that. Anyway, I thought your explanation was more detailed and informative than mine (especially the part about "if you know you need to flop 2-pair, then any two cards will do"). | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 09:03 | ||
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| Thanks shorn. I thought that your explanation was just fine...just added my commentary for reenforcement. :) | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, JunglingS, 10. Apr 2003 09:56 | ||
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| Keep in mind that there are no hands that just automatically become playable in position. This is a point that I've noticed a lot of people get confused on at first -- they know that more hands become playable in late position, but there's some confusion as to why. So here it is, the why of starting hands in position: Information. That's it. Because of the information you have, you can tell if a hand might be profitable in that position. Think about it this way, you're the first to act with 87s in a ten handed game, what are you going to do with this hand? The other players could hold anything, so do you play it hoping that a lot of players will stay in (laying you good pot odds), and you can see a cheap flop? Probabally not. Now, in the same game, you've got the same hand, but this time in position. Let's say that this time 6 players have limped in, and it's looking like you can see a flop cheap by limping in yourself. Now do you play this hand? Well, you might think about it a lot harder. Now, once more, same game, same situation as last time, except it is raised and re-raised before it gets to you. Everyone else folds to you. Do you play this hand now? Not bloody likely. It's garbage in this situation, even though you have position. See, it's not because you are in position that makes the hand playable, it's the information you gain because of that position that allows you to decide whether or not the hand is playable. | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 10:04 | ||
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| Exactly true. An extension of this is raising out of position. Lets say that you have AJ in late position and the pot is unraised. You want to knock out the blinds and play as few players as possible because it is likely that you will hold the strongest hand if you hit an ace or a jack on the flop. Now if you are under the gun and you raise this hand, what happens? Well, you will almost certainly have less opponents to play against, but who will call you? Probably just players who have something better than AJ. What if you are reraised? Your AJ has gone from a raising hand to a mucking hand. Now position has other value aside from information. When you have position it is easier to maximize your won pots and minimize your lost pots. For instance when you have position and are holding the nuts you can be bet into and then raise. Without position the only real way to take 2 bets here is to checkraise and then you might get nothing. Likewise if you have position you can bluff at the river when you are not holding a hand and have a much better chance of folding your opponent because you kow that he isn't betting the river. If you try this out of position you have no way of knowing if he was going to bet the river anyway. Likewise again, if you are in position and there is a bet and raise before you, it is easy to let go of a hand that you may have well bet yourself. For instance, you are first of three to act and you hold KQ with a board of 456 - rainbow. You might try to knock out your opponents with a raise while drawing to your overcards in the event that they call. Now you get raised and have to make a crying call or maybe you get raised and reraised and muck with a bet gone. If you are last to act a player bets out and another raises you can fold your overcards with a smile and not be cost bets on a hand you are destined to lose. Again, it is information. You know what all the other players are doing before you have to act. | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, flintsword, 10. Apr 2003 10:42 | ||
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| If you have a table of sloths that will call with anything and raising is rare (example some low limit online games), then could it not be playable if you are fairly certain to fulfill your pot odds via the calling stations at the table? I played in a really sleepy table like that and wondered if relaxing my standards would not increase my earn rate. Additional info, the slightest raise cause 50% of the players to fold. Zero aggression. It was a low limit table at partypoker and -admittedly - an anomaly. | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, JunglingS, 10. Apr 2003 11:06 | ||
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| Like just about everything -- It depends. If you're at a really non-aggressive table with a lot of people playing just about anything, you can relax your standards and get in on some of the benefits (yes, I said benefits) of schooling. Don't go overboard, but some hands that were borderline become playable, and some dogs are now borderline. Likewise, if the table is full of the tight-passive eighty year old pig farmers who are only there for the free drinks and meals, you can relax your standards. These are people who don't really want to call, so they fold premium hands against mediocre hands a lot more. If they're in on pocket queens and you bet it up when an ace hits, he's gone. Also, if you're against the pocket queens and you hold 87o, when the board comes 728 rainbow, he won't believe you've got the two pair because, "How could you play that!!" Anytime your opponents play too many or too few hands, loosen up! Just make sure you don't go too far with it, or you might find yourself hemmorhaging. | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, Roy Cooke, 10. Apr 2003 22:32 | ||
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| NEVER!!! Roy Cooke on 9. Apr 2003 23:52 DoctaJones wrote: > I am fairly new to poker though I've done a bit of reading. I realize that the > cards you play pre-flop are determined in large part by your position. But say > you're in late position with 10 9 offsuit and there have already been 2 raises > one from early and one from middle, do you still enter? | ||
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| Re: First 2 Cards, chasepoker, 11. Apr 2003 04:08 | ||
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| Also it is one of those hands that even when it gets apparent help on the flop it sucks Possible flops that appear to help it 9T JQx straight draw can be beaten by other straights even if you hit (eg AT when you hit a K ) TTx = again someone might easily have KT,AT,JT all of which beat you. What about 2 pair then ? 9Tx = someone will probably have a straight draw and even the AT,KT.JT will call you all the way with top pair which you may want them to ) but any K,A,Q,J slows you right down when you they come on the turn. One pair on the flop ? 9xx or Txx - both of these again could be dominated by all sorts of cards including over pairs, T better kicker. Finaly as another point when you do hit straight draws / 2 pairs with cards like this people are going to have a good piece of the flop too often and will either make it too expensive to draw or the turn wil bring card that you just dont want to see ! IMHO i would ditch it and wait for a better chance, 56s etc... But then again i am no pro..... | ||
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