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Server Time: 9/7/2008 5:32:23 PM PACIFIC |
 20/40 BB heads up question, jdsalinger, 9. Apr 2003 20:43 | ||
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| ok so a crazy guy on the button raises. He has tried to steal with crap a lot and always plays A rag regardless of position and has called anyone who bet into him with A high ie he is not really bluffable if he holds an A. I've got 56h and the SB folds. I call and the flop comes 938 with one heart. We both check and the turn brings a 2 heart. I know if I check twice he will bet. At this point do you chk raise him heads up? | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Schuster, 9. Apr 2003 21:04 | ||
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| I'm a bit of a newer player, but here's my thinking. Hmm... you said he isn't really bluffable if he holds an ace, so he's likely to call the check raise, right? Then if you don't make your hand, you've wasted an extra big bet. If he's really holding something and reraises you, well then that's trouble. As I see it, when he bets, there are 6.5 small bets in the pot, and you've got 15 outs to make a strong hand, and an additional 6 outs to make a weak pair. The odds are definately there for a call. I think I would check and call here, provided I thought it was likely he would call the checkraise. You're risking the least amount of money for a pot that you will win less than 50% of the time. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Nathaniel Brous, 9. Apr 2003 21:06 | ||
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| Against this type of opponent, I wouldn't. I would checkcall the turn and hope one of my 15 outs hits so I can checkraise the river. But that's just me. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Nathaniel Brous, 9. Apr 2003 21:07 | ||
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| Damm. Schuster snuck in before me. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Schuster, 9. Apr 2003 21:17 | ||
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| I'm just happy you thought the same way, Nathaniel. Guess I've been learning somethin'! | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Nathaniel Brous, 9. Apr 2003 21:31 | ||
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| on 9. Apr 2003 21:17 Schuster wrote: > I'm just happy you thought the same way, Nathaniel. Guess I've been learning somethin'! Of course...we could both be wrong. It's difficult to quarterback from the bleachers. His best decision will come from his gut though. The "know" of an opponent can generally guide you on the close ones. It is great practice though. :) - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Andrew Wells, 9. Apr 2003 21:06 | ||
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| I'd like a few more outs than a gut shot with a flush draw to make that move giving him over 5:1 to call. With overcards and the same draws, no problem with the semibluff checkraise. But this player isn't going to fold very often so I think you need more outs. You may even get reraised, call and have a problem on the river if you miss. I'd call against this sort of player getting 3.25:1 on the turn with your cards because you stand a good chance of being paid off when you play for a checkraise on the river if you make a hand. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, jdsalinger, 9. Apr 2003 21:09 | ||
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| it's open ended on the turn and it is very possible if he has KX I might be able to move him off his hand if I don't hit on the river. Or do you come out betting on the turn (usually a bad play when a blank hits in my opinion) | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Andrew Wells, 9. Apr 2003 21:12 | ||
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| You're right, I missed the double gut shot the turn brought you. I like the checkraise more now. You could still call and play for the double bet on the river too. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, shorn, 10. Apr 2003 04:55 | ||
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| on 9. Apr 2003 21:12 Andrew Wells wrote: > You're right, I missed the double gut shot the turn brought you. I like the checkraise more > now. You could still call and play for the double bet on the river too. If your hand is worth a call when he bets, why not bet yourself to try and see if you can get him to fold? Sure, you might get raised, but then you have a ton of outs if that happens (double gut and flush), most of which are probably clean. Obviously, if you KNOW he will raise, then it is a bad play, but it looks like to me you are getting the best of it by betting so that would be my thought. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Nathaniel Brous, 10. Apr 2003 08:30 | ||
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| Hey Shorn. (938)-2-? The reason I don't like betting (semi-bluffing) the turn is the opponent info. If the man won't lay down Ace high, then it's likely he won't fold a pair or a piece (draw). This begs the question, what could he possibly be holding that he WOULD lay down? KQ, KJ, K10, K7, Q7, K6, Q6, J6, K5, Q5, J5, 105, K4, Q4, J4,104. I think that's about it. After subtracting doublesuited hearts it's still pretty close to a 10% chance you could bluff him. I would rather that percentage be larger. I will await the resident mathwiz (whomever you may be) for corrections. -Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, shorn, 10. Apr 2003 08:55 | ||
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| on 10. Apr 2003 08:30 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > Hey Shorn. > (938)-2-? > The reason I don't like betting (semi-bluffing) the turn is the opponent info. If the man won't lay > down Ace high, then it's likely he won't fold a pair or a piece (draw). This begs the question, what > could he possibly be holding that he WOULD lay down? > > KQ, KJ, K10, K7, Q7, K6, Q6, J6, K5, Q5, J5, 105, K4, Q4, J4,104. I think that's about it. After > subtracting doublesuited hearts it's still pretty close to a 10% chance you could bluff him. I would > rather that percentage be larger. I will await the resident mathwiz (whomever you may be) for > corrections. -Nathaniel Brous Fair enough. I guess the other point is that if you don't bet and he checks behind you, you have given him a free shot to hit an overcard (since we know he plays naked aces and the board is 9 high). With all the outs I have, I would rather give him the option of folding if he is drawing and show some strength so that I set up a river bluff if nothing comes (say a 5). I think it is a pretty close call and the math would argue somewhere in the 55-45 range (off the top of me head) between betting and check/calling. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Andrew Wells, 10. Apr 2003 09:20 | ||
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| If an overcard comes on the river for free then the pot is small enough to just check/fold if you decide against a dangerous checkraise bluff. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 10:06 | ||
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| If an overcard hits and you make your draw, then that is the best thing possible as you will get him betting at you and you will be holdig a better hand. If an overcard comes and you don't make your draw then throw away your garbage. This isn't the kind of player you want to bluff at. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Andrew Wells, 10. Apr 2003 10:23 | ||
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| I was assuming an overcard that didn't complete his flush. Actually I've had success in similar situations playing 10-20 against this kind of player with the checkraise river bluff. Probably because I had a tight image and didn't get caught much making straight bluff bets on the end. Maybe people that play trash assume you caught two pair on the river since they also do more often. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, jdsalinger, 10. Apr 2003 09:28 | ||
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| I would definitely like to bet out but to come out betting when a 2 hits always seems fishy. I'm mostly looking at moving him off his KQ KJ or KX suited if he has it. What's the ideal play to move someone off this type of hand | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Andrew Wells, 10. Apr 2003 09:55 | ||
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| I think you already know the answer. Checkraise semibluff the turn, and bet the river if he calls. The alternatives of betting the turn and river, or calling the turn and checkraising the river should work equally well against this type of player provided he does end up with an unimproved king or queen high hand. A checkraise on the turn has some possibility of getting him off an unimproved ace if you follow through on the river where just betting twice may not. If he's very likely to bluff at the river should you call the turn, then a checkraise rebluff there may be correct. Another question that hasn't been addressed is how you think he would react to a card on the river that does make your flush. If he's less likely to call with an unimproved hand in that spot, this would favor a checkraise semibluff on the turn. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 10:07 | ||
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| A lot of maniacs will not fold their overcards. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. When you bluff at bad players they often call you inappropriately because they have no idea how badly beaten they should think they are. I think in this case you are best off playing honest, betting if you make your draw and check-folding if you do not. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, Andrew Wells, 10. Apr 2003 10:34 | ||
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| Very true in a 3-6 game, but I don't see them calling with unimproved KJ in middle limits. Calling the turn and waiting to see if you hit the draw is a viable option. I would be more inclined to play it that way if I believed my opponent had a pair, or as I posted earlier when it is just a gutshot with a flush draw. | ||
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| Re: 20/40 BB heads up question, stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 08:12 | ||
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| You're still drawing. You are on the uberdraw with up/down and flush draw, so on the flop you would be a bit favourite to win it...but heads up on the turn he is still a favourite. Wait until you make your hand and then play him. | ||
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