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Server Time: 9/7/2008 8:01:43 PM PACIFIC |
 Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., David A, 9. Apr 2003 14:12 | ||
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| I play a lot of low limit holdem online and I read a lot about it. The tables I play in are almost always loose/passive. I try to play as tight/aggressive as possible. I get the impression that many seems to think that middle pairs, such as 88 and 99 is a lot more profitable than low pairs such as 44 or 55. I doesn´t really agree, because to win with a middle pair you almost always have to flop a set. This is true even with TT and JJ. I agree that with few callers, your middle pair is a lot better than your low pair, but in low limit, there are seldom less than five callers. I also think that raising with middle pairs in late position, even on the button is worthless. If I raise I do it to get people out of the pot, but people won´t fold their original call against a raise. What do you think, am I totally wrong? The spell check is great by the way, Mike. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., noiseboy, 9. Apr 2003 14:26 | ||
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| If there really are five to six callers every time, then you want to raise not to get people out so that your pair will hold up by itself, mostly you raise because you will win more than you fair share of pots because you got people in there with J7o, K2s and other such crap. There will be a real hand or two in with you, but that's OK, more than one hand can benefit from the people playing crap. It's true that your pair is rarely going to hold up with lots of callers and an overcard hits the board; however, when you hit trips your raise has tied people in with bad draws and has started to built up a monster pot for you. Even if somebody hits a flush or straight, you still have your redraws to the Full House, and if you've raised before the flop the odds will almost always be there to draw to it. Obviously the smaller the pair the more callers it takes to make this kind've raise. With seven limpers I will raise on the button all the way down to dueces. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., David A, 9. Apr 2003 14:39 | ||
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| If you play at a loose passive low limit table. You are at the button with 66, 7 callers no raise, it´s your turn to act and you raise. The flop comes Ac 10h 2c, UTG +2 raises and everyone calls. I would fold my hand immediately. What would you do? What would you do if there was a reraise? | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., noiseboy, 9. Apr 2003 15:48 | ||
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| Certainly fold when two overcards and a flush draw are present and you've missed your set. The idea is that you are about 11 to 1 to hit the set on the flop. When you hit, you will likely win a large pot because small pairs are a well-hidden holding. If you changed the ten to a 6 in the flop you mentioned, you are probably going to get a lot action with somebody in there with an A with good kicker, and maybe somebody else with a flush draw, so chances are good that you will win a large pot. In loose games, you might even get action from people with A-rag. If you miss, you are done. It's that simple, unless of course the pot is offering you enough to take a card off to spike the set on the turn which it usually isn't, especially if there is a chance that you could spike it and still lose. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., noiseboy, 9. Apr 2003 15:52 | ||
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| One more thing, the additional benefit of raising with a small pair on the button when you have a small pair (ONLY when you have the odds to do so) is that nobody puts you on a small pair, thus increasing the likelihood people will call your raises when you have a premium hand in the future, and increasing the likelihood that others will misread you on this particular hand. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., David A, 9. Apr 2003 15:55 | ||
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| I´ll try it for a while. Seems to be a very good idea. Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., noiseboy, 9. Apr 2003 16:23 | ||
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| One word of caution, do these kind've raises only with position because even in a loose game you are just throwing your money away if you don't get the favorable conditions mentioned above. Good Luck! | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 08:39 | ||
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| Raising your small and middle pairs for value is fine, but you want to avoid chasing out players too. If you think the blinds will call your raise then by all means, but if you are going to fold out the blinds with the raise then it is almost better to just call on the puck. The raise is nice though as it adds deception as well as value. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., shorn, 10. Apr 2003 04:45 | ||
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| The only point I disagree with here is that you are a 7.5 to 1 dog to hit your set on the flop, so a bit better than 11-1. The key is that you are building the pot in case you hit your set and sometimes (but not very often) your pre-flop raise will allow you to see the turn for free thereby giving you another (albeit very small...23-1) chance to catch your set on the turn. If the flop misses you completely and somebody bets (especially an EP player), into the muck she goes. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., noiseboy, 10. Apr 2003 09:59 | ||
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| oops, thanks for the odds correction, not sure what I was thinking of, maybe the odds of hitting a gutshot or something. Man, I do need some coffee, I posted this to the wrong thread the first time. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., shorn, 10. Apr 2003 10:02 | ||
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| on 10. Apr 2003 09:59 noiseboy wrote: > oops, thanks for the odds correction, not sure what I was thinking of, maybe the odds of hitting a > gutshot or something. Man, I do need some coffee, I posted this to the wrong thread the first time. You are a better man than I for giving it up. Coffee is my friend, especially at the poker table. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., noiseboy, 10. Apr 2003 11:47 | ||
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| Well, it was actually poker that made me realize that I needed to give it up. I'd drink a cup and play really well for about an hour or so, then I'd get really stupid and spacey after that and make some bad decisions. Turns out I have some blood sugar issues, so as much as I love coffee, it's gotta go. Maybe I could get away with Green Tea, since it's not quite as intense. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., 4 POKER, 11. Apr 2003 03:39 | ||
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| When I'm holding a medium pocket pair 77, it really depends on my position with the hand preflop. If everyone has folded to me and I'm on the button or the cut-off then I will definitely raise the hand in hoping to drive out the blinds and take the pot right there. I also think that even though you can play this hand heads up with good position, it really plays best in two different situations. One being the first mentioned (stealing the blinds), which is a no- brainer, or to have a multi-way pot with many callers. If your on the button and there are already many players who have called one bet, then sometimes I will throw in a raise hoping to get extra money into the pot if I happen to flop a set. Keep in mind though, with everyone taking the flop with you, you will have to flop either a set or a board that really favors your hand, like 456 for example. But just because you play the hand preflop, limping in or raising, do not feel that you must continue on with the betting. If the flop comes up A 10 2 and there is a bet to you, I don't care if it's two bets or just one bet, that hand goes right in the muck. You have too many players involved already... You are definitely beat. The small and medium pairs can be very profitable when you hit them on the flop, but the key to not losing with these pairs is to throw them away immediately when the flop doesn't hit you. Don't try to outplay your opponents with obvious overcards out there, you will be costing yourself too much money and that one wrong play could turn your profit into a loss. Just pick up the cards and say, "well maybe next time I'll get lucky with this one"!... And into the muck it goes. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 08:38 | ||
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| It really depends on how you play the middle pairs. If played correctly they can be really profitable. First of all, lets say that you make your set. It is possible that somebody else makes a set too, so right away, we see the value of the middle pair over the low pair. What if the board comes something like 223? Your 88 looks a hell of a lot better there against 334, doesn't it? Or what about a board of 555? For that matter, what about 567 on board? 88 is *much* better than 44 here. Follow? Lastly, pocket pairs play well heads up and play well against a large field. If you've got 88 and have 5 opponents, you still need to follow the no-set no-bet rule except in exceptional circumstances. That said, if you're holding 88 on the puck with one limper, you will often raise with it, drive out the blinds and play the limper heads up. Now if the flop comes a lot of garbage you are almost certain to have the advantage right now and you can probably get the limper calling with his overcards. If you're holding 44 in the same position a garbagey flop can have you beat more easily. Playing an underpair to the board is just too much shizznat. But don't underestimate your small pairs at a loose table. If you can get 5 opponents they are wonderful to play whilst looking for a set and if the table is really loose you can even play them in early position. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., noiseboy, 10. Apr 2003 09:55 | ||
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| Oops, yeah, thanks for the odds correction. I'm trying to quit coffee and things have been kinda muddled. | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., noiseboy, 10. Apr 2003 09:57 | ||
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| Nice post, but what is "shizznat"? | ||
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| Re: Low vs Middle pocket pairs in low limit holdem., stdioh, 10. Apr 2003 10:13 | ||
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| A slightly less vulgar way of saying sh*t :) | ||
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