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Server Time: 12/2/2008 7:12:18 PM PACIFIC |
 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), Chad, 9. Apr 2003 08:17 | ||
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| I have a Preflop question I would love to get some advice/thoughts about. 2 nights ago, I am playing 8-16 Holdem at Paradise. I was at a table with 3 loosies all to my left, about 5 solid players (3 tight and aggressives, 2 passive trappers) and one play it by the book type. I would say I had played pretty tight and aggressive for about an hour and a half, I know this because as luck would have it I had checked out my player stats right before this hand. I had been at the table for 87 hands and had only seen the flop 7 times. However, I had great command at the table as all the players had been there since before I got my seat, also of the 7 flops I had seen I had taken down the pot all 7 times. Although the pots I had taken down were relatively small, I had made a nice profit of over 170 dollars from those 7 hands, mainly in my opinion because for the first time in a long time, I didn't let myself get caught up in any "questionable" hands. I had thrown away AT and KT 4 or 5 times in MP when there were no pot odds to warrant a preflop open bet, etc, etc. My question begins here, sorry for all the info but I always see you guys wanting to know all the info about the game when asked for advice. I am UTG+1 and am dealt AsQc, UTG open raises. This guys had open raised under the gun twice that I could remember since I sat down, one time he had wired JJ's and the other I didn't get to see as he took it down preflop. This guy was the play it by the book type, not too much preflop raising out of position and played fair after the flop, although I had played him twice perfectly after the flop on 2 of my seven wins. Taking about 20 seconds to think about it, I decided I would muck the AQos for 3 reasons. 1. I have a hard time playing this hand out of position. 2. I was winner playing tight and aggressive at this table, and I didn't want to have to forfeit my previous style to play a hand passively unless I flop a monster. 3. All the loosies were behind me and I was scared I might have to end up paying 32 to see flop because if it was raised behind me the original raiser might cap it. As it ended up every folded and I would have had the guy 1 on 1 post flop, but I am just wondering who out there would have done the same? PS: Ended up making a 520 dollar profit in under 2 hours, not bad if I may say so myself. Thanks Chad | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), shorn, 9. Apr 2003 08:31 | ||
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| on 9. Apr 2003 08:17 Chad wrote: > I have a Preflop question I would love to get some advice/thoughts about. > 2 nights ago, I am playing 8-16 Holdem at Paradise. > I was at a table with 3 loosies all to my left, about 5 solid players (3 tight > and aggressives, 2 passive trappers) and one play it by the book type. > I would say I had played pretty tight and aggressive for about an hour and a > half, I know this because as luck would have it I had checked out my player > stats right before this hand. I had been at the table for 87 hands and had only > seen the flop 7 times. However, I had great command at the table as all the > players had been there since before I got my seat, also of the 7 flops I had > seen I had taken down the pot all 7 times. > Although the pots I had taken down were relatively small, I had made a nice > profit of over 170 dollars from those 7 hands, mainly in my opinion because for > the first time in a long time, I didn't let myself get caught up in any > "questionable" hands. > I had thrown away AT and KT 4 or 5 times in MP when there were no pot odds to > warrant a preflop open bet, etc, etc. > > My question begins here, sorry for all the info but I always see you guys > wanting to know all the info about the game when asked for advice. > > I am UTG+1 and am dealt AsQc, UTG open raises. > This guys had open raised under the gun twice that I could remember since I sat > down, one time he had wired JJ's and the other I didn't get to see as he took it > down preflop. > This guy was the play it by the book type, not too much preflop raising out of > position and played fair after the flop, although I had played him twice > perfectly after the flop on 2 of my seven wins. > > Taking about 20 seconds to think about it, I decided I would muck the AQos for > 3 reasons. > > 1. I have a hard time playing this hand out of position. > 2. I was winner playing tight and aggressive at this table, and I didn't want > to have to forfeit my previous style to play a hand passively unless I flop a > monster. > 3. All the loosies were behind me and I was scared I might have to end up > paying 32 to see flop because if it was raised behind me the original raiser > might cap it. > > As it ended up every folded and I would have had the guy 1 on 1 post flop, but > I am just wondering who out there would have done the same? > > PS: Ended up making a 520 dollar profit in under 2 hours, not bad if I may say > so myself. > > Thanks > Chad Chad- Not a terrible play to fold here, but considering the image that you had built up (only playing 9% of the hands and winning all the hands that you played), I am guessing that the by the book player and the tighter players noticed that you were playing tight. In this case, an alternative strategy might have been to 3-bet to make sure that you isolate the UTG and then see the flop and decide what to do based on the cards that come and your read. If I was playing against you and you 3-bet me (again, based on the fact that you had barely played in an hour and a half), you would have gotten a lot of respect from me, so I would have slowed down unless I had a really big hand (AA, KK, AKs). As an aside, i think a call is out of the question as AQo does not like a lot of company, so I think your decision has to be 3-bet or fold. | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), Piers Majestyk, 9. Apr 2003 09:30 | ||
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| I was thinking about how I would handle your situation and it turns out to be the same way shorn would so I won't go into a long explanation. I think I would probably lean toward 3 betting the guy most of the time. | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 09:28 | ||
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| I think that you made a good fold here. Generally speaking, you AQ isn't that hot against a raise preflop from a solid player. Especially since he's raising UTG. You've got to figure that you're a coin flip on jacks, which I would imagine are the worst pair that he would raise here. Any other bigger pair and you are a big dog to it. He might have AQ for a chop or AK to have you dominated. I doubt that he has AJ. Against a typical low limit player in a live game, I think a call is a standard action here, but since you did such a good job of describing the game, I think laying down that hand was most appropriate. Good stuff. | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), shorn, 9. Apr 2003 09:55 | ||
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| on 9. Apr 2003 09:28 stdioh wrote: > I think that you made a good fold here. Generally speaking, you AQ isn't that hot > against a raise preflop from a solid player. Especially since he's raising UTG. > You've got to figure that you're a coin flip on jacks, which I would imagine are the > worst pair that he would raise here. Any other bigger pair and you are a big dog to > it. He might have AQ for a chop or AK to have you dominated. I doubt that he has > AJ. > > Against a typical low limit player in a live game, I think a call is a standard > action here, but since you did such a good job of describing the game, I think laying > down that hand was most appropriate. Good stuff. A call, really? I don't see the benefit of that play as if you are going to play at all, wouldn't you rather at least try to get him heads up? If it was AQs, then i would agree a call could be in order. But with AQo, I think the way to go is either raise/fold or fold/raise depending on how well you know the player. I am curious to know your logic on just calling. Thx, Shorn | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 11:19 | ||
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| I guess it depends on table texture, but the problem with a raise there is when somebody caps it after you. Now you're pretty much married to the hand and what are the chances that one of your opponents doesn't have you screwed to the wall. Most likely I would call there and see who else comes in...if it's not a very loose table you shouldn't get more than one caller anyway. | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), Andrew Wells, 9. Apr 2003 10:21 | ||
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| If you called two cold someone else might have come in, and possibly the big blind. Against a legitimate early position raise AQo can get in real trouble. No problem mucking it there, good players do this routinely. If UTG was a loose raiser, then three bet or get out. At your table if a reraise will just cause someone else to cap, pass anyway. If you doubt you can isolate a loose early position raiser with AQo then it's often going to be a difficult hand to play effectively. | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 11:20 | ||
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| Good post. I agree and would most often muck there, but raises can be really dangerous here. | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), noiseboy, 9. Apr 2003 10:28 | ||
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| That's a very good laydown with the raise coming from a solid player, and loose players to follow. The raiser might have something better than AQ, and if you three bet, you may still get company you don't want from the loose geese. If the situation were reversed somewhat with a loose raiser in front and the tight players behind you, you should definitely three bet, but you already know that. Also, I agree with the person who said that calling would be advisable ONLY if it were suited and you don't mind people coming in, it's definitely a raise/fold deal with it being offsuit. | ||
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| Re: 8-16 Hold-Em PreFlop Question (Serious Replys Only Please), flintsword, 9. Apr 2003 12:28 | ||
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| Great post Chad! Thank you for bringing up a good poker question that better players can address and the rest of the Gilled players like myself can learn from. Your description of the players and the game was helpful too. Please bring more problem plays like this as they are appreciated. | ||
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