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Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:12:45 AM PACIFIC |
 I HATE Trips, Jeffrey Biship, 8. Apr 2003 23:16 | ||
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| For some reason trips have been giving me fits lately in both HE and O8. Here are just two of those hands, both from .50/1.00 Omaha 8. Hand 1: In the unraised big blind with Tc9c8d4h. Three limpers and the small blind make five to the flop for one bet. Flop: Ts Th 3c I bet, get two callers. Turn: 4s I bet, get two callers. River: 7d I bet, get raised, third player cold-calls. I reraise, raiser caps, cold caller calls two more. I call. I lose to JhTd8h7c and a back door low of AhQh9h2h. I figure I "only" made one mistake in this hand. What's your count? Should I have folded after it gets capped? Hand 2: I limp 2 off the button with KhQsTs9s. The cut off raises. The next FIVE players call. I call, too. Seven to the flop for two bets. Flop: QcQd6h. It's checked to the raiser who bets. EVERYONE calls. No low draw. No flush draw. No straight draw. It gets back to me and I think, "Hell, I've got between 6 and 10 outs to scoop. I may as well raise," and do so. EVERYONE calls. I mentally call for a new setup. Turn: 5s Checked to me, I decide to retain the initiative and bet again. EVERYONE calls. River: 6s It gets checked to me. I know I'm beat, but there's no way I win this huge pot by just checking it down. I go ahead bet again. TWO people call. Ad2s6c5c (Who knew that the winner of the pot was dead money!) beats AhQhJs7s and my third best hand. Was raising the flop a mistake here? I mean, look at all that dead money! Was betting the turn a mistake here? Once again--DEAD MONEY! Was betting the river really THAT big of a mistake here? Jeff I don't mind having it pointed out that I'm a bad player, but please do me the courtesy of not acting like I've never considered the possibility. :) | ||
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| Re: I HATE Trips, 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 00:42 | ||
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| HI JEFF, FIRST OF ALL I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT ON HAND # 1, YOU PLAYED IT PERFECTLY AND SHOULD NOT HAVE FOLDED ON THE RIVER. YOU HELD 10'S FULL OF 4'S, AND THE BOARD READ 10- 10- 3-4-7. THERE WAS ONLY ONE HAND THAT COULD HAVE BEAT YOU, AND DON'T FORGET THE LOWS NOW GOT THERE ON THE RIVER AND NOW FEEL IT IS CORRECT FOR THEM TO PRESS THE BETTING. YOUR CALL WAS CORRECT. HAND #2: I PERSONALLY DON'T CARE FOR MEDIUM TO HIGH STRAIGHT CARDS THAT DO NOT CONTAIN A SUITED ACE. HOWEVER, YOU HAD A GOOD FLOP, BUT MAYBE YOU COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE LESS AGGRESIVE ON THE TURN. YOU HELD K-Q-10-9, WITH Q HIGH SPADES. THE FLOP WAS Q-Q-6, (GOOD FLOP FOR YOUR HAND), HOWEVER THE TURN BROUGHT THE 5 OF SPADES, WHICH NOW BROUGHT OUT THE NUT FLUSH DRAW POSSIBILITY AND THE LOW DRAW. (KEEP IN MIND THAT WITH THE 5 AND THE 6 ON THE BOARD, ANY LOW CARD THAT COMES ON THE RIVER WILL BRING A STRAIGHT EXCEPT FOR THE ACE. THERE ARE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF COMBINATIONS OF CARDS IN OMAHA, THEREFORE AS GOOD AS YOUR HAND MAY APPEAR TO BE, WITH MULTIPLE CALLERS IN THE HAND, YOU REALLY ARE NOT THE FAVORITE TO IMPROVE. YES YOU HAVE A STRONG HAND ON THE FLOP AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE NUTS ON THE TURN AS WELL, BUT WITH ALL THOSE PLAYERS INVOLVED, EACH OF THEM HOLDING 4 CARDS, IT IS QUITE EASY TO GET OUTDRAWN. IT WAS NICE TO HEAR A QUESTION ABOUT OMAHA 8. I HAVE BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME FOR TEN YEARS AND TRUST ME, I KNOW IT CAN BE VERY FRUSTRATING AT TIMES, (FLOPPING NUT-NUT DRAW, AND THEN BLANK, BLANK) BUT WHEN YOU PLAY HANDS WHERE ALL 4 CARDS WORK WELL TOGETHER (OR AT LEAST 3 OF THEM DO), YOU WILL HAVE A MUCH BETTER SUCCESS RATE WITH OMAHA. SOMETIMES THE NAKED ACE-DUECE IS NOT EVEN WORTH A CALL AGAINST MULTIPLE RAISES PREFLOP. I HAVE A BOOK ON OMAHA 8 W/ STUD 8 OR BETTER BY RAY ZEE, AND IT HAS BEEN VERY HELPFUL TO ME OVER THE YEARS. IT'S CALLED HIGH-LOW SPLIT POKER FOR ADVANCED PLAYERS; BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU HAVE BEEN PLAYING THE GAME FOR A LONG TIME OR ARE JUST A BEGINNER, YOU CAN LEARN ALOT FROM WHAT HE HAS TO SAY. BEST OF LUCK, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: I HATE Trips, Jeffrey Biship, 9. Apr 2003 01:15 | ||
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| 4 POKER, Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I shouldn't admit it, but I've read the Ray Zee book (at least the O8 section) several times. Guess I need to read it several more. :) Jeff | ||
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| Re: I HATE Trips, 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 01:32 | ||
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| hi again! i'd like to know how long you've been playing omaha. when i first started to play the game i was awful! but in time, like anything else, if you chose to learn the game, watch, absorb, read books, whatever, you will succeed. i have read ray zee's book several times, i still look at it now from time to time. omaha hi-low is in my opinion the most complex game of all leaving it to be the most difficult to learn and fully understand. if you make it your main game and keep your discipline about your starting hands, you will have good results. hang in there! 4 poker | ||
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| Re: I HATE Trips, stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 07:32 | ||
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| I'm going to disagree with 4poker on the first hand (what else is new) :) Bare with me as I'm not a very proficient Omaha8 player, so I may be out of line here and if so I appologize. First off, by its nature, Omaha is a game of the nuts, so if you're playing with competent players you have to know that your calls there are of the crying variety. Secondly, there is a low on board. You have to assume that you're fighting with your high for half of the pot. So unlike in hold'em instead of weighing your chances of winning vs. the amount in the pot, you have to think about your chances of winning vs. half of what is in the pot (and that includes what you are betting). I can see arguments for calling here and I can see arguments for folding - really depends on your opponents. But I rule of thumb that I use in Omaha8 is that if I ever think, "should I fold here?" the answer is yes, I should. | ||
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| Re: I HATE Trips, 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 08:48 | ||
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| HI JEFF, I WOULD LIKE TO COVER A LITTLE MORE GROUND WITH YOU ON OMAHA HI-LOW. EVEN THOUGH I FELT YOUR CALL WAS CORRECT WITH THE 10'S FULL OF 4'S, LET ME REMIND YOU THAT OMAHA 8 IS NOT A GAME WHERE YOU WANT TO FLOP A SET WITH NO OTHER REDRAW. OMAHA HI-LOW IS ABOUT FLOPPING THE NUTS AND DRAWING TO AN EVEN BETTER HAND. EXAMPLE, FLOPPING THE NUT LOW WITH THE NUT FLUSH DRAW, OR FLOPPING THE NUT STRAIGHT WITH REDRAW TO THE NUT FLUSH AND OR THE NUT LOW. FLOPPING A SET IS O.K. AS LONG AS YOU HAVE ANOTHER DRAW WITH YOUR HAND, ONE THAT WILL BE STRONG ENOUGH TO WIN. THOSE ARE JUST A FEW EXAMPLES BUT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT OMAHA IS A GAME WHERE YOU WANT TO HAVE A DRAW TO THE WHOLE POT OR 3/4'S. IN A MULTIWAY POT, IT WILL NOT MATTER IF YOU SHARE THE LOW SIDE OF THE POT, AS LONG AS THERE ARE 4 PLAYERS INVOLVED AND THERE IS ONLY ONE OTHER PLAYER WITH THE LOW, YOU WILL BREAK OUT EVEN. IF THERE ARE MORE THEN 4 INVOLVED THEN YOU WILL MAKE MONEY. THAT'S WHERE HAVING THE ABILITY TO READ YOUR OPPONENTS WILL MAKE YOU EXTRA MONEY. IN A LOOSE WEAK GAME YOU WILL GET PLAYERS WHO PAY OFF WITH SECOND NUTS. DON'T BE ONE OF THEM, PLEASE! YES, MANY POTS WILL BE SPLIT, THAT IS THE TEXTURE OF THIS GAME, AND KNOWING HOW TO PLAY YOUR HANDS CORRECTLY AFTER THE FLOP CAN MAKE YOU A NET NET WINNER. I WOULD MUCH RATHER FLOP THE NUT FLUSH DRAW WITH THE NUT LOW DRAW THEN TO HAVE FLOPPED A SET, ESPECIALLY WITH SEVERAL PLAYERS IN THE HAND. A GOOD RULE OF THUMB: IF YOU ARE PLAYING IN A LOOSE GAME WHERE THERE ARE MULTIPLE CALLERS PREFLOP, WHEN THE FLOP COMES UP YOU MUST BE DRAWING TO THE NUTS; ESPECIALLY WHEN DRAWING TO THE LOW SIDE OF THE HAND. TOO MANY PLAYERS MAKE THE MISTAKE BY DRAWING TO LOW HANDS THAT ARE SECOND BEST. WITH ALL OF THOSE OTHER OPPONENTS INVOLVED, SOMEBODY IS DRAWING TO THE NUT LOW, GUARANTEED. #2, IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A GAME WHERE THE PLAYERS ARE PLAYING THEIR HANDS CORRECTLY AND ARE KNOWLEDGEABLE OMAHA PLAYERS, THEN YOU MUST PLAY VERY TIGHT PREFLOP AS WELL. THERE ARE MANY MORE ADVANCED PLAYS AND WHEN YOU FIND YOURSELF COMPLETELY COMFORTABLE WITH THE GAME, THEN YOU CAN LEARN ABOUT THEM AND APPLY THEM ACCORDINGLY. BUT IF YOU WILL BE STICKING TO PLAYING LOW LIMIT OMAHA, (AND THAT IS FINE, TOO) THEN I SUGGEST YOU PLAY A VERY TIGHT GAME ON THE FLOP. YOU CAN BE A LITTLE MORE LIBERAL PRE-FLOP BECAUSE THERE WILL BE SO MANY TIMES WHEN THE POT ODDS ARE CORRECT FOR YOU TO CALL, BUT, YOU MUST PLAY VERY TIGHT ON THE FLOP, WILLING TO THROW YOUR HAND AWAY WHEN IT'S NOT THE OPTIMUN FLOP FOR YOU... AND YES, EVEN THROWING AWAY A SET! THE GREATEST FEELING THERE IS IN OMAHA IS TO SAY, "NUT- NUT"!! (KEEP THAT IN MIND)!! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: I HATE Trips, Jeffrey Biship, 9. Apr 2003 19:45 | ||
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| on 9. Apr 2003 08:48 4 POKER wrote: > HI JEFF, > I WOULD LIKE TO COVER A LITTLE MORE GROUND WITH YOU ON OMAHA HI-LOW. Thanks for taking the time to reply again. I appreciate all the help I can get. > I SUGGEST YOU PLAY A VERY TIGHT GAME ON THE FLOP. > YOU CAN BE A LITTLE MORE LIBERAL PRE-FLOP BECAUSE THERE WILL BE SO MANY TIMES WHEN > THE POT ODDS ARE CORRECT FOR YOU TO CALL, BUT, YOU MUST PLAY VERY TIGHT ON THE FLOP, > WILLING TO THROW YOUR HAND AWAY WHEN IT'S NOT THE OPTIMUN FLOP FOR YOU... AND YES, > EVEN THROWING AWAY A SET! I have thrown away sets on the flop in O8 and it's not fun, but occasionally necessary. I'm trying to stick with my tight game, but I'm afraid I'm making occasional but costly mistakes late in hands. That, coupled with the losing streak I'm on is shaking my confidence and affecting my game, I think. To answer your question from another post, I've been playing O8 for only about a year and a half, have been playing HE for about three years, and poker for about four and a half. Anyway, thanks for your feed back. Jeff | ||
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| Re: I HATE Trips, 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 21:05 | ||
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| Hi, just hearing you say that you make mistakes late in the hand tells me that you are learning alot. Heck, i played the game for almost a year without realizing that about myself! (We must first be aware of our mistakes before we are able to fix them)! So you are definately on the right track! I also think it is important to know how to play more then one game, so when you do suffer those bad losing streaks in one game, you can take a break, and play in the other. Good for you! Please feel free to discuss any of those hands you are having problems with- we could learn alot from each others input. thanks, 4 POKER:) | ||
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