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Server Time: 9/7/2008 7:16:27 PM PACIFIC |
 capping a bet(pre-flop), john ray, 7. Apr 2003 11:17 | ||
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| In low limit , i see this regularly,but ,i fail to see the point of doing it with 4-5 people in. Lets say you are on the button with AKs, already raised , reraised and the reraise called twice. Is there a reason to cap with this or any other starters? Maybe, pocket pair or suited connectors and see what the flop brings. Thanks Guys! | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), noiseboy, 7. Apr 2003 11:22 | ||
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| Well if you are at a loose table, with several maniacs, you raise because chances are you have the best of it. At a tight table, you might think about folding because you are probably against AA or KK. Or maybe just call and hope you get a nice flush draw to suck out on the pocket pairs. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 7. Apr 2003 14:23 | ||
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| Indeed. Here you're going to be capping it for value. If your opponents are on big aces and pocket pairs, etc, then you have the best of it so long as you hit your hand. All you're really worried about is pocket kings and pocket aces. So if you're at a table where 3-bets happen all the time for no good reason, then by all means cap with AK AA and KK ... and possibly QQ too. Just remember that when there are that many bets in before the flop it becomes impossibly to give players bad pot odds and make it correct for them to fold their draws, so you're more likely to have the hand won by something silly than if there is less money in the pot when the flop comes. An example happened this weekend at Brantford. I'm at a disgustinly loose 10-20 and I cold call with 4h5h -> normally I would chuck this hand in an instant, but the raise came from a maniac and there were always lots of callers...if I hit my hand, I'm good. Now the hand is 3-bet by a total rock and capped by the same maniac. Again, if I hit my hand I'm good, plus I know that the rock has AA or KK. When the flop comes 258 with no cards of my suit, it's time to chuck that pig, but there is enough money in the pot that it is correct for me to draw to my six outs, so I call the rock's leading bet. I hit 2 pair on the turn and checkraise him. He calls me on the river and I take down a massive pot. He was correct in 3-betting for value with his AA and he had the best of it, but he neglected the fact that it was correct for me to call with my garbagey hand and thus he was unwilling to believe that I had 2 pair even though I checkraised him on the turn. This is a mistake that far too many players make when the pot is full - many of them just accuse the caller of being stupid and not folding a gutshot, etc. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), john ray, 7. Apr 2003 16:29 | ||
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| Thanks guys. I appreciate your patience with my simple questions. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 7. Apr 2003 21:14 | ||
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| I would like to reply to the response or should i say the advise given to you by Roy Cooke. High cards, whether they be in hold-em or any other form of poker, go way up in value, however, when playing in a low limit game, you must show down the best hand alot more of the time. All those fancy plays trying to outplay your opponent, raising and then trying to get the free card does not work as well in low limit poker. These players are there to play their hand, not yours. They are not even thinking to what you might have. So in saying that, don't be surprised when you cap it off with AK, and don't hit anything, and you try for the check raise or the re-raise on the flop, whatever, you will be paid off by pocket 77's, trust me! The hand is over-rated by the simple reason because it is overplayed. I see so many players get so absorbed with AK, that they are never willing to throw it away. It is a money-maker, BUT, you must know when the hand is just no good. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 8. Apr 2003 08:06 | ||
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| Yes. By the same token, bet the poop out of your KK preflop, but in a loose passive game you have to muck it without question when an ace hits the flop. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 7. Apr 2003 21:28 | ||
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| 3 BETS WITH POCKET AA's IS NOT A VALUE BET, IT IS THE BEST HAND, PERIOD! WHAT I WOULD VALUE VERY MUCH, IS SOMEONE WHO IS WILLING TO PUT IN 3 OR 4 BETS PREFLOP WITH 4-5! IF YOU THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU BEAT "THE SO-CALLED ROCK" WITH HIS AA, THEN THINK AGAIN. PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS MAKE A TON OF THEIR MONEY FROM PLAYERS WHO ARE WILLING TO DO JUST WHAT YOU DID!! AND FROM ALL OF US .... "WE THANK-YOU, VERY MUCH":) 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), shorn, 8. Apr 2003 05:29 | ||
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| on 7. Apr 2003 21:28 4 POKER wrote: > 3 BETS WITH POCKET AA's IS NOT A VALUE BET, IT IS THE BEST HAND, PERIOD! > WHAT I WOULD VALUE VERY MUCH, IS SOMEONE WHO IS WILLING TO PUT IN 3 OR 4 BETS PREFLOP WITH > 4-5! > IF YOU THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU BEAT "THE SO-CALLED ROCK" WITH HIS AA, THEN THINK AGAIN. > PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS MAKE A TON OF THEIR MONEY FROM PLAYERS WHO ARE WILLING TO DO JUST WHAT > YOU DID!! > AND FROM ALL OF US .... > > "WE THANK-YOU, VERY MUCH":) > 4 POKER The only problem with this statement is that your thinking is too narrow when it comes to 54s. There are situations and times where cold calling can be correct for this hand as it is likely in the situation described that all of stdioh's cards are live pre-flop. Also, it is not like he called 4 best cold...he called two bets twice: first because of the raiser being a maniac and second because the odds were there. I agree that 3-betting AA is not a value bet (although I guess it depends on your definition of value), but IMHO he played this hand correctly. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 8. Apr 2003 08:08 | ||
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| Thanks shorn. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), shorn, 8. Apr 2003 11:14 | ||
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| on 8. Apr 2003 08:08 stdioh wrote: > Thanks shorn. Any time. With all that you have taught me, I think I owe you a few. :) | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 8. Apr 2003 13:41 | ||
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| I have a big ego...be careful you don't feed to too much or it might explode :) | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 8. Apr 2003 08:12 | ||
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| Heheheh...don't take this as a severe statement, but I think that you have a long way to go if you're going to be a professional player. AA *is* the best hand, no question, but you don't need the best hand when you have 7 players preflop. You just need a better than 1/7 chance that your hand will improve to be the best hand. When there are that many players the chances of winning with an overpair are slim. Lots of players are going to have a shot at hitting 2 pair or better. Thus, suited connectors become a great holding because they can improve to the straight or to the flush. In my case, I hit two pair and was lucky that nobody else had a piece of the flop and jammed it - or I would have had to release. I was also lucky that this rocky player was very predictible and I could be SURE that he had an overpair. So yes, if there are a small number of players seeing the flop, hands like 45 suited become total garbage...even TJ suited isn't wonderful to play. The point is that if you want to squeeze all of the blood from the stone of poker you need to be flexible enough to make calls like that when you know you are making an uncommon yet +EV play. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 8. Apr 2003 08:14 | ||
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| Oh, and I should also point out that 45s is *THE* pocket aces killer. If you can put an opponent on an overpair, the best thing to have is suited connectors that are low. A smaller pair is a giant dog to the aces. If you always get pocket aces and I can pick my hand, I'll take 45s over KK every time. Do the math and you'll see that the suited connectors play a lot better heads up against an overpair than a dominated pair does. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 03:59 | ||
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| i would like to know who taught you your math? who ever told you that 4-5 has a better win ratio then AA heads up has been feeding you with unbelivably bad and misread information. you said that if I had pocket AA's and you were to chose your hand to play me against, you would take 4-5 suited, correct? o.k., I will take you up on that offer and we'll see who comes out ahead! yes, 4-5 will play better against AA then KK or any other pair because you have more outs to make two pair or a straight, however 4-5 suited will not be the money-winner ...as always AA heads up will win far more times in the long run and even short term! 4 POKER p.s. if you can point out a book to me where it states that 4-5 plays better then AA, heads up... let me know. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 07:53 | ||
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| > i would like to know who taught you your math? The University of Waterloo. I have a degree in mathematics from the University of Waterloo. www.uwaterloo.ca -> second to Harvard in math undergrad programmes in North America, though MIT is getting pretty close to it. > who ever told you that 4-5 has a better win ratio then AA heads up has been feeding you with unbelivably bad > and misread information. Who taught you how to read? AGAINST A LARGE FIELD MEANS LOTS OF BETS ARE IN THE POT. YOU DON'T NEED A 50% CHANCE OF WINNING AND WHEN THERE ARE A LOT OF BETS YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF WINNING THE POT WITH 45s THAN AA HAS. > you said that if I had pocket AA's and you were to chose your hand to play me against, you would take 4-5 > suited, correct? Yes. It is not a favourite to beat AA, but it does better against AA than pretty much any other hand. Small suited connectors are the best hand to take against aces. What...do you think KK stands more of a chance? > o.k., I will take you up on that offer and we'll see who comes out ahead! > yes, 4-5 will play better against AA then KK or any other pair because you have more outs to make two pair or > a straight, however 4-5 suited will not be the money-winner ...as always AA heads up will win far more times > in the long run and even short term! Really? AA beats other hands heads up? What a fool I've been! All this time I thought that 45s was the best poker hand there was (and since you're increadibly unintelligent I'll tell you that I'm being sarcastic here). Got any more brain busters? 45s is a DRAWING HAND. Drawing hands are good against made hands when there are enough players in the hand to justify pot odds. Thus against a large field, 45s is WONDERFULLY GOOD. Now I will ask you who taught you your math. > 4 POKER > p.s. > if you can point out a book to me where it states that 4-5 plays better then AA, heads up... let me know. I said that 45s is the best hand to play against AA heads up. I didn't say it had an advantage. Jesus tapdancing Christ! | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 08:58 | ||
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| WOW, SORRY IF I OFFENDED YOU. AND P.S. I DIDN'T KNOW JESUS COULD TAP DANCE! | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 04:16 | ||
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| in response to your statement stdioh, i really don't have a long way to go to become a professional player, i already am: have been so for over ten years now. i make a very good living from it, own my own house on the water, and need no other source of income to pay all of my bills. my poker has taken care of that! i play all limits, from 10-20 up to 50-100, and there is one thing that i always take with me when i go in to play and that is my discipline- the ego needs to be left at the door! (try to remember that,ok)? not too bad for someone who has a long way to go! but thanks for caring. all the best, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 07:57 | ||
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| Perhaps I have been a bit harsh. I should modify a stament like, "You are a bad bad poker player," to: "At least one of the following statements is true: You are a bad bad poker player. You are an ineloquent writer." | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 04:57 | ||
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| BEING LABLED AS A " ROCK" DOES NOT MEAN THAT A PLAYER IS PREDICTABLE- IT DOES MEAN THAT HE/SHE IS A SOLID PLAYER. NOT A TIGHT PLAYER, A SOLID PLAYER. SO WHEN YOU CALLED ME A "ROCK", I HAD NOTHING TO DO BUT THANK YOU FOR SUCH A NICE COMPLIMENT! YOU ARE A VERY PERCEPTIVE INDIVIDUAL, I ONLY HOPE YOU ARE AS PERCEPTIVE WHEN YOU PLAY POKER. THANKS, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 07:58 | ||
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| How can you be a ten year seasoned veteran and not know basic terminology. A rock is a losing player who plays only the most premium hands. He is too tight and too weak and you dodge out of his way generally when he is in a hand. A solid player is a solid player, but a rock is not a solid player. A rock is just a different kind of fish who has very limited losses. A rock is a marginal loser in most games, though in a really loose passive low limit game he may be a marginal winner. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), shorn, 9. Apr 2003 08:25 | ||
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| You go man!!! | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 09:15 | ||
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| IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE TWO OF YOU, (OBVIOUSLY FRIENDS) HAVE OTHER ISSUES. NONE OF THEM RELAYING TO POKER AND HELPING OTHER INDIVIDUALS. I GET THE IMPRESSION THAT THE TWO OF YOU ARE HERE TO JUST PAT EACH OTHER ON THE BACK! YOU NEED TO GET RID OF YOUR ANGER AND YOUR CHILDISH COMMENTS. THIS FORUM IS ABOUT HELPING EACH OTHER. YES, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH AGREEING TO DISAGREE, BUT THERE IS CORRECT AND POLITE WAY IN DOING SO. IF YOU FEEL THAT YOU ARE A MUCH MORE SUPERIOR PLAYER THEN I AM, WELL GOOD FOR YOU! I AM NOT HERE TO BRAG, OR TO BE RUDE TO ANYONE, LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN, I HAVE NO NEED TO PROVE MYSELF WHATSOEVER. IF YOU WANT TO CALL ME A BAD POKER PLAYER THEN GO AHEAD! THE TWO OF YOU CAN TRASH TALK ALL YOU'D LIKE, AND I WILL CONTINUE BEIING SUCCESSFUL WITH MY POKER CAREER, THANK YOU:) 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 09:35 | ||
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| Actually, I just met shorn on this forum. I would say that we pat eachother on the back when one of us says something noteworthy and I have to say that I think he is intelligent and polite. He also knows how to use a keyboard without having the caps lock on. And I am sorry that things had to be dragged down to a petty level between us, but I'm also not one to back away from a challenge - are you? I have thrown down the gauntlet in a battle of poker wits and I want to know if you are man enough to pick it up. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 9. Apr 2003 10:00 | ||
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| YOUR FRIEND KNOWS HOW TO USE THE KEYBOARD WITHOUT HAVING THE CAP LOCKS ON?? WOW, WELL LET ME PAT HIM ON THE BACK FOR YOU! I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO THEN TO MAKE CHILDISH REMARKS. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO USE ALL UPPERCASE LETTERS IN A POKER FORUM, THEN WHO ARE YOU TO PASS JUDGEMENT? AND WHY WOULD YOU EVEN BOTHER? THAT'S THE REAL QUESTION. YOU SOUND LIKE YOU ARE JUST ANOTHER POKER WANNABE, KIND OF LIKE, ALWAYS THE BRIDESMAID, NEVER THE BRIDE! I AM THROUGH WASTING MY TIME WITH YOU AND REPLYING TO YOUR REMARKS. I AM MAD AT MYSELF RIGHT NOW FOR RESPONDING BACK TO YOU TWO IDIOTS. GROW UP. MAKE SURE YOU DON'T LOSE THE CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER, IT WILL PROBABLY BE THE ONLY ONE YOU WILL EVER HOLD ON TO! | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stein, 9. Apr 2003 10:19 | ||
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| This might be of interest to you, although, judging by your prowess, I'm sure your response was made with such concepts implicit. In taking your example: My statistical tables tell me 45s will win 1/9th of the time against 7 random hands played through to the end. However, given the likely holdings of your opponents, the probability of our own ranks (and indeed our required straight cards) being live is vastly increased. Not to mention the effect of the likely counterfeiting your opponents hands will encounter. Furthermore, in reality, not all hands will be played to the end (although this is more likely given the pre-flop cap). In other words, although the statistically derived value of 'X' may at first glance insufficient to produce a +EV play. Inherent factors in such a hand certainly shift the statistical value of 'X' into the 'playable' window. Hope this is clear and of interest. Stein. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 9. Apr 2003 11:36 | ||
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| Indeed. Thanks for the analysis. Correctly, it is a hand that pays off when it becomes a made hand, but is easy to throw away when the flop is not at least marginal for it. The vast majority of flops seen with suited connectors that don't hit get folded. It is that fact which makes them profitable and which I neglected to mention. | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), Roy Cooke, 7. Apr 2003 19:09 | ||
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| Hi John Yes, I cap that situation. I have position and the hand is big enough that the raise likely has value based on the strength of the hand. The hand plays better with a raise, you are more likely to get a free card and the raise can have intimidation value as the hand plays out! Roy Cooke n 7. Apr 2003 11:17 john ray wrote: > In low limit , i see this regularly,but ,i fail to see the point of doing it > with 4-5 people in. Lets say you are on the button with AKs, already raised , > reraised and the reraise called twice. Is there a reason to cap with this or > any other starters? Maybe, pocket pair or suited connectors and see what the > flop brings. Thanks Guys! | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), 4 POKER, 7. Apr 2003 21:03 | ||
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| There is a hand in which you would cap it with and that is AA. The other starting hand would be KK. With multiple callers already in the pot calling three raises, you don't have to cap it with KK, however you can. KK is the second best hand out there, and if you want to cap it with what probably is the best hand, then go ahead, you also have the best position as well, remember that. I must admit however, calling cap bets with AK is a sticky subject. First of all, you must hit your hand. In many situations, AK holds up all by itself. But in this situation, it will not. You must hit your hand and you might even have to hit it twice (2 pair), not the best position to be in. AK suited goes up in value a little bit more (about 13%). I Still feel that AK is a very overplayed hand and with too many players seeing the flop, it's value really goes down. Now, you mentioned something about small suited connectors? Raising with suited connectors on the button can sometimes be a good way of "advertizing", mixing it up a bit with good position. However, calling multiple raises yourself with that holding will be nothing more then a mistake. It is not the right spot for that hand and should be thrown away immediately. Don't throw good money after bad. GOOD LUCK, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: capping a bet(pre-flop), stdioh, 8. Apr 2003 08:18 | ||
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| It sounds to me like you're a bit of a rock, 4 ... I really think it would be wise for you to look into alternative ways to play a hand. To say that the only hand to cap with is AA has a strong problem and that is that your opponents will see you cap, put you on aces, and not pay you off when you have them. A hand like AK is wonderful as long as nobody is holding AA or KK, so look at the table you're playing with and see if you can get a read on the bettors. If you're up against a bunch of pairs queens or less then you're a giant favourite (in that you have a much higher than 1/X chance of winning with X players in the hand) Likewise, you're good against big aces. It's pretty much a hand that you hit and get paid off or don't hit and muck, but you still want money in the pot. There are lots of reasons for capping and lots of reasons for not capping, but to categorically say that you wouldn't cap because your cards aren't good enough is short sighted. And listen to Roy. He has the vigour of youth and the wisdom of old age. | ||
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