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Server Time: 8/30/2008 12:28:56 AM PACIFIC |
 raise don't limp, jake-free, 7. Apr 2003 09:29 | ||
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| any time I raise preflop only good things happen,if I hit my hand its very good,if i miss I get a free card and/or a free ride.so I shouldn't limp in but fold? comments? | ||
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| Re: raise don't limp, stdioh, 7. Apr 2003 09:50 | ||
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| The problem with raising preflop is when other people are holding better cards than you or when you want more players in. Lets say you raise your 55 preflop. Let me look at this example in some detail (though there are many other examples that are worth discussing). Here you are doing everything wrong. First, you are preventing opponents from calling you, so if you flop a set, there are less players in the hand to pay off your monster hand. Now pairs are great against a big field for their set potential and great heads up all in, but against 2 or 3 opponents, you are a giant dog with your pocket fives. Now, who is going to call your raise? Anybody with a smaller pocket pair is going to fold. Anybody with a large pocket pair will call or reraise. If they reraise you're going to be putting in a third bet to a hand that has you totally dominated...may as well fold your fives then and there. Who else will call or raise? Anybody with 2 cards that are better than your fives who calls (and everybody who calls will have two cards over 5) has a 50% chance or so of hitting a better hand than you. To add to this problem, they know when they make their hands, but you do not know when they don't make their hands. So they hit and pump the pot up...you can't stick around on your fives. They don't hit, you can't build the pot and they might even bluff you off. Your 55 is just total garbage here. Other places where raises are really bad are suited connectors. Again you're looking for a monster, so you want to keep as many people in the hand as possible. Now if there are 7 limpers and you are last to act, then by all means, raise for value and deception. But when you're acting against a small enough field, throw them away and when it is large enough just limp...never raise ahead of others with these. One more place to look is AX suited and AX off. AX suited plays a lot like suited connectors. You're probably no good if you just hit your ace, but you've got a chance at the nut flush and you've got a good kicker if you flop trip X's. If you do hit your ace, you might have pot odds to draw to your kicker, in some (very few) cases. Now one place where your theory holds is with little junky hands like AXo. If you call here, it's practically a death sentence, because your ace is almost certainly no good if you hit it, but if you raise then you should be able to chase people off of bigger aces. Good players with aces will likely only call if they have AK or AQ (some might call with AJ, but I muck it to a raise from a solid player) ... now if you hit your ace, you *might* be good, but again you have to be willing to let it go if you take heat. Long story short, stick to what the experts tell you when deciding to limp or raise - they know best...it's what they do. | ||
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| Re: raise don't limp, noiseboy, 7. Apr 2003 11:18 | ||
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| Much of what you say is true; however, if you already have a big field with your pocket fives, suited A or suited connector, say everyone is in and you are on the button, you might want to raise for value and to tie people to the pot if you hit your hand. If you miss with 55s or suited A or even suited connector, it's extremely easy to get away from the hand; however, if you flop a premium draw, then you have already started to build yourself a monster pot. You have also added deception to your play, people will think you just got lucky and that you are a fish if you raise with the fives, not realizing that you only did it because of the odds of a large field. Then next time you are raising with pocket AA's they'll be like, "Oh I'm calling because this is the dumbass who raises with pocket 55's" which of course is only beneficial to you. Anyway, I don't disagree with anything you said, this is just an addendum to explain that there are situations where you can raise with otherwise weak holdings. | ||
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| Re: raise don't limp, stdioh, 7. Apr 2003 14:28 | ||
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| on 7. Apr 2003 11:18 noiseboy wrote: > Much of what you say is true; however, if you already have a big field with your pocket > fives, suited A or suited connector, say everyone is in and you are on the button, you > might want to raise for value and to tie people to the pot if you hit your hand. If you > miss with 55s or suited A or even suited connector, it's extremely easy to get away from > the hand; however, if you flop a premium draw, then you have already started to build > yourself a monster pot. > > You have also added deception to your play, people will think you just got lucky and that > you are a fish if you raise with the fives, not realizing that you only did it because of > the odds of a large field. Then next time you are raising with pocket AA's they'll be > like, "Oh I'm calling because this is the dumbass who raises with pocket 55's" which of > course is only beneficial to you. > > Anyway, I don't disagree with anything you said, this is just an addendum to explain that > there are situations where you can raise with otherwise weak holdings. Actually, if you read my post again, you will see that I say exactly this. I'm all for raising small and middle pocket pairs and suited connectors in late position against a large field of limpers. Raise for value when there are enough players in. | ||
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| Re: raise don't limp, noiseboy, 7. Apr 2003 14:40 | ||
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| Sorry, read your post pre-coffee this morning and somehow managed to miss the parts about raising when there are lots of limpers. | ||
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| Re: raise don't limp, stdioh, 7. Apr 2003 14:50 | ||
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| No probs...I do that sort of thing all the time. | ||
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