|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 8/29/2008 9:53:26 PM PACIFIC |
 Online shuffle integrity - A few thoughts, SendMoney, 7. Apr 2003 04:57 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I have only ever played online at two websites, PlanetPoker.com and ParadisePoker.com. I'm just a player and I'm not being sponsored by either site so I'd like to think my views are objective. I've long had a perception that something was not quite right at Planet Poker - I see way too many quads, especially quads on the flop, AA every 4th or 5th hand, way too many AA up against KK on the same hand, not to mention the standard 1-4 outters hitting on the river (those happen everywhere), and I've also had the 1250 to 1 underdogs hit on me about 3-4 times. Example KK vs JJ heads up, flop comes K 7 5 rainbow, turn is a J, river is a J - I lose, this has happened to me more than once. That is flop a set and lose to smaller set via turn+river for quads. Some might say "That's poker" - and yes, I buy that once, maybe twice, but 3 times? 4 times? That's nothing short of shady. On my last session at Paradise Poker I played about 229 hands, I was dealt pocket aces once (won a big multi-way pot with aces full of fives), pocket kings once (flopped a set lost to a straight made on the turn), pocket queens once (won a decent pot versus pocket jacks). I saw pocket aces about 7 others times being held by other players, and I figure a couple other pocket aces were mucked or folded, so I figure the ratio was appropriate since a given pocket pair should should up about once every 22 hands at a 10 player table. I was also impressed that Paradise Poker's shuffle is independently reviewed by PriceWaterhouseCoopers, a reputable 3rd party to ensure a random shuffle and deal. This might not seem like a big deal, but if Paradise Poker see fit to have a 3rd party firm review it's shuffle then why doesn't Planet Poker since Paradise is their main competitor? I'm thinking Planet Poker doesn't because they don't want the truth to get out. As if all that weren't enough the rake at Paradise is lower too. I respect Mike Caro as a very knowledgeable poker player and poker professor, but frankly I do not trust Planet Poker. Until they have a reputable 3rd party monitor and ensure the integrity of a purely random shuffle, I won't be taking any more of my business there. I have enough to worry about between collusion and the rake, I don't need the decks stacked for or against me. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Online shuffle integrity - A few thoughts, Mark, 7. Apr 2003 13:32 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I play at planet poker, and do not think there is anything wrong. For the last week i've been running cold and have been losing an average $1.00 an hour at various games and limits. However, the week before last i was avereraged about $40 an hour. Everyone will go thorough swings, you just have to ride them out. Also, at Planet poker, many people marry their hands and don't fold when it is very obvious they are beaten. When 3 or 4 opponents do this at the same time, your odds of getting beaten go up significantly. In stead of one opponent chasing to 2 outs, you have 4 opponents chasing to 8 or more combined outs, making it much more likely you will get drawn out on. mark | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Online shuffle integrity - A few thoughts, 3Kings, 7. Apr 2003 14:57 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 7. Apr 2003 13:32 Mark wrote: > I play at planet poker, and do not think there is anything wrong. For the last week > i've been running cold and have been losing an average $1.00 an hour at various games > and limits. > > However, the week before last i was avereraged about $40 an hour. Everyone will go > thorough swings, you just have to ride them out. > > Also, at Planet poker, many people marry their hands and don't fold when it is very > obvious they are beaten. When 3 or 4 opponents do this at the same time, your odds > of getting beaten go up significantly. > In stead of one opponent chasing to 2 outs, you have 4 opponents chasing to 8 or > more combined outs, making it much more likely you will get drawn out on. Good point, Mark. IF you have JJ and are against 3 players with Ax, Kx, and Qx, then there are nine cards that hurt you (as well as redraws) which puts you at about a 2:1 favorite (after the flop). Roll a six-sided die. If a 1 or 2 comes, you lose, if a 3,4,5, or 6 comes, you win. Try it thirty times and see how you do. You should win 20 times and lose 10. Taking into a count standard deviations, you will win somehwere in the neighborhood of about 17-23 times out of thirty. Statistics isn't my strong point but I think that is close to correct > > mark > | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Online shuffle integrity - A few thoughts, NiceFella, 7. Apr 2003 13:50 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Ugh, I feel myself getting dragged into the "online integrity" debate again... I can't help myself.... If I was hosting a poker web site and wanted to cheat the players, the last thing I would do is stack the deck. That takes work, makes players suspicious, everyone on the internet is paranoid about it, and statistical tracking can detect it. In the human world it's the way you cheat, but computers are very different. Me, I'd just look at your cards. It's totally trivial. After all, I gave you the cards, I know what they are. And it makes having an independently-reviewed shuffle algorithm totally pointless. Personally I think hosting a poker site is a sweet gig -- thousands of players put their money on account and rarely if ever withdraw it, so you can draw interest on their cash while steadily raking it away from them. And the reason I need to cheat them is...? The only profit threat I can see to online poker is competetion and legal woes. The slightest proof of cheating would multiply these problems tenfold. Why would I do the one thing that would destroy my profits? Of course there's the idea that some web sites aren't intentially stacking the deck; they just use a lame random number generator that in some way results in strange hands. I suppose this is possible, but for the same reasons I don't think sites cheat, I think they work hard to ensure a fair, secure game. Paradise advertises their independently-reviewed shuffle. In my mind, that's just drawing my attention to something I didn't know I needed to be worried about. I guess they're hoping for just the reaction you had -- they want us to wonder why the competition isn't also independently reviewed. But my paranoia about the game integrity runs far deeper. Just WHO is Paradise? What are they doing with my money? Why is it so much harder to get it back than put it in? Are they looking at my cards? Which of these players are shills? Are they in cohoots? Are other players using telephone or instant messenger or to talk about their hands? Are my opponents splitting the profits at the end of the night? Am I playing against a computer? Is my credit card number safe? If online poker is legal, why is Paradise located offshore? And is Paradise really so fly-by-night that they needed to stick a comforting "PriceWaterhouseCooper" badge on the shuffle? How about getting the whole game endorsed, not just the shuffle? At least Planet Poker puts a name and a face on their site, and it seems Mike Caro is willing to put his reputation on the line for it. Yes, it's possible that some poker web site out there is actually cheating players. Someday the Feds will bust them and I'll look like the fool for saying all this. I can live with that. I came in with my eyes open. It used to be the case that B&M casinos were crooked. These days, with corporate oversight and government regulation, people don't seem to be as concerned. There's too much profit at stake for a B&M casino to bother with cheating nowdays. Hopefully online poker will reach the same maturity soon. Instead of threatening online poker, I hope governments will embrace and support it. Well, that's what I have to say about this. Sorry Planet Poker gave you bum cards. NiceFella | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Online shuffle integrity - A few thoughts, NiceFella, 7. Apr 2003 14:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| OK, in retrospect I realize I used your simple questioning of Planet Poker's shuffle integrity to launch into a rant about online cheating. I apologize for that. My main points regarding your comments are: 1. Generating a good, random shuffle is a well-explored problem in the world of computer programming. 2. There's no reason to expect intentional tampering with the shuffle -- quite the contrary is true. 3. Incompetence in programming the shuffle seems unlikely, since it must bear intense scrutiny and is not a difficult task compared to many others in building an online poker server application. OK, I'll shut the hell up now. NiceFella | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Online shuffle integrity - A few thoughts, Giocatore, 7. Apr 2003 18:54 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Very interesting original post. As an avid poker player without easy access to a card room, I can honestly say that I have logged over 3000 hours of online poker in the past three and a half years or so. The main site I play on is Paradise Poker, yet I still play on Poker Stars, Planet Poker and Party Poker. I used to play on Ultimate Bet, perhaps logging a total of 500 hours or so, but I closed my account back in January due to some absolutely ridiculous, moreoever suspicious play that I encountered there as well as sheer unprofessionalism exhibited by a few of the site sponsored players as well as management in general. But I won't get into that. Anyhow, with respect to the original post, I can honestly say that on Poker Stars, Planet Poker and Ultimate Bet, you are, for some "odd" reason, more likely to be dealt wired pairs, and there is also a strong likelihood that one or more players will be dealt such, AA vs. KK for example. Over the years I've taken my beats in scenarios such as these, but truthfully, it is because of this strange frequency that I have chosen Paradise Poker as my "home" site, if you will. I am fully aware that Paradise Poker is the only site that not only has its shuffle audited by an independent agency, but also publishes the results. Could this explain the frequencies in wired pairs hitting on one particular site as opposed to another? Possibly. Another thing to think about: I do not believe online poker is "rigged." However, it is no secret that Paradise Poker is by far the largest and most profitable site out there. Thus, it is definitely possible that smaller sites intentionally manipulate their shuffles in order to induce action, thus ensuring the maximum is raked from each pot. This is definitely something to think about, especially if someone is new to online poker and is not sure where to play. By all means I would recommend Paradise Poker not only for the game selection, availability of games at any hour of the day on any day of the week, and graphics, but also for their excellent customer service. In all the e-mails I have sent to support in over 3 years, I have always received a response within 10 minutes. Quite remarkable. Just to touch on cheating online, which was mentioned in one of the threads. There is no doubt that people cheat online. Just 2 nights ago, I was about to sit at a 3/6 HE short game, 5 max, and noticed 2 players sitting next to one another from "Wheelersburg," wherever that is. I decided to watch for about 10 minutes. What a joke. If both of them had posted the blinds and everyone else had folded, the SB would never attempt to steal the BB, and the pot would not exceed $6. In addition, if there were other people in, there would be consistent pauses when it was time for the first player to act. What does that mean? They were obviously comparing cards on messenger. Bottom line is that players should be aware of this, especially with players from the same town. Of course there are exceptions - Las Vegas for example - but if you see 2 or more players from some obscure town at your table and no action among them, it should definitely raise your eyebrows. Again, great original post, and in turn, I hope this post helps anyone still new to online poker or anyone in general who is unaware of what may actually be going on behind the scenes. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Online shuffle integrity - A few thoughts, SamDam, 7. Apr 2003 22:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Don't worry about the "integrity" of the shuffle. Worry about the "security" of the shuffle and collussion. I too feel that Paradise is THE place to play. Pokerstars-really weird beat after weird beat. UB-not enough games going all the time. Party-my biggest complaint here is the long wait lists and they never seem to open more tables when the existing ones are full. Planet-I can't really comment intelligently since i haven't played there alot, but what little I have played it seemed OK although the games were tight aggressive and I felt better win rate was available elsewhere. If you want low limit (1/2 or2/4) then nothing beats the games at Pokerroom. Like I said forget about shuffle "integrity" and concentrate on finding a site you like and trust. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|