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Server Time: 10/11/2008 1:05:49 PM PACIFIC |
 Early position question, ross, 6. Apr 2003 18:59 | ||
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| this question is regarding limit hold em in a looser typical game. Is it correct to raise early position with hands like KQos or AJos in early position but not under the gun? I would really appreciate if someone would reply with a list of their raising hands in the situation i described. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, Paul Stine, 6. Apr 2003 19:53 | ||
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| on 6. Apr 2003 18:59 ross wrote: > this question is regarding limit hold em in a looser typical game. > > Is it correct to raise early position with hands like KQos or AJos in early > position but not under the gun? > > I would really appreciate if someone would reply with a list of their raising > hands in the situation i described. > In early position you don't have good information about how many people are going to be in the pot or how much it is going to cost to see the flop. Hands like connectors, suited connectors and small pairs generally need volmue pots, that is, pots with lots of callers. In a looser game, raises with hands like those you mention are generally not going to drive out better hands, only worse ones that you need in the pot to make your draw viable. So, if you decide to play these hands at all, you are probably better off just calling, unless the character of your table is such that you can drive these hands to victory with little or no hit. (A loose and very passive table.) The less info you have about the size and texture of the pot, the stronger the hand you need to play. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Early position question, Andrew Wells, 6. Apr 2003 20:45 | ||
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| To raise with AJo or KQo several conditions in a loose game need to be met. The players who have position on you after the flop need to be those who will usually reraise immediately with better hands, thereby giving you some additional information to work with on the flop. You also need to be against players who do not semibluff much after the flop, so that it is easier to make decisions to let go of top pair when necessary. You generally don't want to get involved in a large pot with these hands against players who do not pay attention to what you are doing and just play their cards and the board. Likewise you don't want to be against several opponents that will just gamble and take bottom or middle pair to the river trying to hit their kicker. So if players have been paying attention, you have been involved in very few pots, your raises have previously shown down big hands, and you might be able to buy a pot with say seven big bets in it on the turn 20% of the time - then it could be worth opening for a raise. Even AQo may fall into the same conditions from early position in a loose game. If you play a loose/aggressive style then obviously you raise with these and even worse hands. The purpose being to keep generating action so that when you do win, the pots will be larger than normal to make up for the extra bets you spend. This sort of sub-optimal play will tend to beat loose/passive opponents, and has extra psychological effects as well. Another time to raise would be when you have appeared to change gears for several hands from tight to loose due to some consecutive quality starting cards. If you just played something like AQs followed by KK aggressively, then keep the pressure on with AJo or KQo as well. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, 4 POKER, 7. Apr 2003 05:56 | ||
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| When playing in a loose game, your starting hands need to be alot stronger. however you didn't say if it was loose and aggresive. there is a difference. if the game is also aggresive, then raising with hands like AJ and QK will only lead you to trouble and perhaps extra bets with bad position. NOW, if the game is not aggresive, but is very loose, it is ok to limp in with those hands but i would rather not raise with them in early position. Raising with hands like QK in early position is only a raise to be made in very tight games where you might be able to steal the blinds. QK is just not a strong enough hand to play against a large field with bad position. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, noiseboy, 7. Apr 2003 11:32 | ||
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| I disagree that your starting hands have to be a lot stronger. Actually, they can be much weaker as long as they have a chance to make a nut hand. Unless, of course, the game is very aggressive, then you still need really strong starting hands. But in a loose typical or loose passive game, you can play more hands before the flop and then tighten up after the flop. Since you are going to have lots of callers, you only want to be in if you flop the best hand or a good draw. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, Mark, 7. Apr 2003 13:44 | ||
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| I agree with 4POKER You need strong hands to play in loose games, because you can lose alot of money just calling too much preflop. And you will destroy your bankroll chasing hands with out pot odds or drawing to the second nut hand in loose games. mark > I disagree that your starting hands have to be a lot stronger. Actually, they can be much > weaker as long as they have a chance to make a nut hand. Unless, of course, the game is > very aggressive, then you still need really strong starting hands. But in a loose typical > or loose passive game, you can play more hands before the flop and then tighten up after > the flop. Since you are going to have lots of callers, you only want to be in if you flop > the best hand or a good draw. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, noiseboy, 7. Apr 2003 14:16 | ||
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| You may have misunderstood what I meant. You can play more of the marginal drawing hands in loose games before the flop, but I certainly don't mean you should stay in if you don't flop a good draw or a good hand. The nice thing about loose games is that you are pretty much guaranteed that if you flop an open ender or a flush draw, maybe even gutshot plus overcards, the implied odds are in your favor. Not that you should just assume that, you should still count the bets to be sure. In a tight game, you want to stay away from small pairs and small connectors except in certain very specific situations, especially out of position. I agree that you should play tighter, because it is likely you will have to show down the best hand, but unless the game is aggressive, most of this extra tightness should be AFTER the flop. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, stdioh, 7. Apr 2003 14:36 | ||
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| I think that this is all a matter of style. There is money to be made playing loose agressive and there is money to be made playing tight and conservative. That said, if you're playing in a loose low limit game with a bunch of fucktards, the only way to play it is tight. You have too many players in there hitting all kinds of krazy krap. Yeah...play your suited connectors when you have lots of limpers - that's just playing well. But your 78o and the likes will get stomped down far too much to be worth playing. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, stdioh, 7. Apr 2003 09:20 | ||
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| These are both close enough situations where you shouldn't do either all the time. Predictablilty is your enemy so it is good to varry your play in situations like this. I will raise AJo in early position about 30% of the time. I will raise QKo in early position about 50% of the time. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, 4 POKER, 7. Apr 2003 15:41 | ||
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| I have a question. Why would you raise with AJ 30% of the time preflop, and 50% of the time with QK? WHICH HAND DO YOU THINK IS BETTER, QK??? Raising with hands like that in early position(up-front) will prove to be very costly in loose aggresive games. I agree, you should mix up your play, but in games where they are not paying any attention to your fancy poker and are just there to play, don't waste your time and your money! Save that fancy stuff for the pro's. | ||
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| Re: Early position question, stdioh, 8. Apr 2003 08:27 | ||
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| I think that *YET AGAIN* you are being trapped by the idea that AJ is better than QK because it fairs better when the hands are played against eachother heads up. Against a large field of opponents KQ is a much better holding. The reason for this is that if you hit either a king or queen high on the flop, you're holding top pair second kicker and can do well with it. With AJ, if you hit your ace, you are good a little less often. AJ loses to AQ AK QQ KK AA when it hits an ace and loses to JJ QQ KK AA when it hits a jack, but also allows overcard draws (usually with gutshots too) to AK AQ when it hits a jack high, so it will be drawn out on a lot. KQ however loses to AK when it hits a king and loses to AQ when it hits a queen and loses to the premium pocket pairs. But it is an easy hand to release when an ace hits the flop. It is also nice in that if you make a straight with it, you will get paid off very well in most cases and it makes more straights than AK. Yes, I would prefer to have KQ any time that I get AJ, but both are relatively marginal for raising. And even though I'm going against just about everything you say, I don't mean to discourage you or call you down. I just want you to start thinking about the value of cards not as a static thing...each pair of cards you can hold does not have a static value...it really depends on what other players are holding and how many players there are in the hand, what position you are in and how the table texture is. If you are ever going to beat games above the very lowest limit spread you need to start making advanced plays, not just putting money in when you have the best of it and folding when you do not. on 7. Apr 2003 15:41 4 POKER wrote: > I have a question. Why would you raise with AJ 30% of the time preflop, and 50% of the > time with QK? > WHICH HAND DO YOU THINK IS BETTER, QK??? > Raising with hands like that in early position(up-front) will prove to be very costly in > loose aggresive games. > I agree, you should mix up your play, but in games where they are not paying any > attention to your fancy poker and are just there to play, don't waste your time and your > money! Save that fancy stuff for the pro's. | ||
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