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Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:09:03 AM PACIFIC |
 Online Poker, ross, 5. Apr 2003 10:27 | ||
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| I dont think I will ever play online limit games for real money again. I was playing in the $1-$2 on propoker. I suffered the worst string of beats and being outdrawn ever. this was in about an hour hand. I had AA in early position in a pretty aggressive game and didn't raise planning to reraise a late position raiser. there were about 6 callers. the flop came Js4h3d. i bet got raised, 5callers, i reraised all the same callers. turn 4d, i bet same 5 callers. river, 6d, small blind bets i call and he has the Qd, 4d. A little later i had 10's under, raised and got 3 callers, flop 10d5s4s, i bet, get called in two places. the turn and river were both spades, i folded but the winner showed down qs6h. i couldnt believe it. I had 6 more hands like this where the board proceeded to screw me. i could go on and on about this crap. i won about two hands the entire session, i play in home games every weekend for about 6hrs each day and i have never seen anything like this. | ||
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| Re: Online Poker, chasepoker, 5. Apr 2003 11:38 | ||
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| Ross i understand your frustrations but i believe what you see online is fair, you have to realise that people play too many hands and will call with anything. The reason you dont see this in your home game is that a) the players you play with are better thus they dont suck out on you so often ( remember to have a bad beat in the first place someone normaly has to call a bet with little chance of winning ) and b) you play less hands per hour at home than online. I actually used to think like you that it was fixed but then i realised it was my mistakes that were making me lose ( that and a killer rake ). In the examples you gave the AA getting cracked, if 6 people come preflop then your chanes of you winning nosedive massively ( i almost treat AA with 6 people as no set no bet !!! - or at the very least no set only a water testing bet ) Keep at it, change limits or learn a hi-lo game as there are less suck outs but i wouldnt give up on On line poker, there are some easy games out there ! !!!!!! | ||
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| Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, flintsword, 6. Apr 2003 16:20 | ||
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| Your comment where you suggested treating AA with 6 players as the same as no set, no bet is a really intriguing comment. Could another *good* player comment on this idea. The math seems better for AA rather than a random pair that hasn't flopped a set, but is it a good idea to treat AA with six players this way? | ||
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| Re: Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, chasepoker, 6. Apr 2003 17:16 | ||
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| Bearing in mind i said i ALMOST treat AA with 6 players as no set no bet, though i am sure that in LIMIT poker it may well be nearly mathmaticly probable that someone will have you beat or enough players will have draws that make your AA a big dog whatever the flop ( ie the combined draws of everybody will usually beat you ). Of course as i said i am no expert on the maths side, though i do actualy think now might be the time for me to invest in a programme to help me on this. New post i think... | ||
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| Re: Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, flintsword, 6. Apr 2003 18:05 | ||
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| Thanks chasepoker ... I was interested in the idea that strong holdings are neutralized by increased numbers of players. Everyone has lost with AA and understanding the playing conditions that lead to that kind of loss is important, I think. Time to bring the Wilson software out to do some work unless there is a site that has already done the work? | ||
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| Re: Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, Paul Stine, 6. Apr 2003 19:41 | ||
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| on 6. Apr 2003 18:05 flintsword wrote: > Thanks chasepoker ... I was interested in the idea that strong holdings are neutralized by increased > numbers of players. I think 'neutralize' is probably a little strong. However, AA is a holding that, ideally, only wants one or two opponents. In volume pots (which a six-player pot would be) you would prefer to be playing strong drawing hands; big flush draws and nut straight draws. When AA misses the flop against a lot of players it often becomes a weak drawing hand needing a very big pot. The more coordinated the flop, the bigger the pot needs to be. >Everyone has lost with AA and understanding the playing conditions that lead to > that kind of loss is important, I think. Time to bring the Wilson software out to do some work > unless there is a site that has already done the work? Op# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 AA% 85.3 73.4 63.9 55.9 49.2 43.6 38.8 34.7 31.1 This is showdown win percentage vs # of opponents compiled by Steve Brecher (based on 1,000,000 trials). You can see the entire table at http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm If you plot these values you can see that a line through them is not linear. So, as the number of opponents goes up the decrease in winning percentage decreases in more than proportion. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, flintsword, 6. Apr 2003 20:42 | ||
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| Thank you Paul, for your usual thorough answer. AA against 4 players or less wins over 55% of the time and with 5 players and over, the odds are against me. This keeping in mind what you know about your opponents which can influence a decision. That site is fascinating and I have added it to my favourites. | ||
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| Re: Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, noiseboy, 7. Apr 2003 12:10 | ||
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| It seems like your research refutes the claim that Aces prefer one or two opponents. If you have 9 opponents throwing money into a pot, and you will win it almost a third of the time, you are a huge money favorite. That would seem to suggest that AA's do the best with the MOST callers. However, I do agree that with a bunch of callers, you want to hit a set or have someone bet into you so you can raise and drive out some marginal draws. If you hit a danger flop, like two face cards suited but not to either of your AA, I suspect the odds on AA's holding up goes WAY down with each additional opponent. Then you would want few opponents, and if there are a lot of them betting and raising, you might just want to get the hell out and avoid a bad beat. It seems like your chart suggests that if you raise before the flop with AA's, you don't do it to drive people out, you want as many callers as possible. However, if you get a lot of callers and an unfavorable flop, you need to get out. | ||
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| Re: Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, Bill A., 9. Apr 2003 04:06 | ||
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| To you continue on your premise that strong holdings are often neutralized by many players, this is especially true with AA or any high pair, the mathematics will prove that a high pair plays well against few players, just as you want many players and multi-way pot action with smaller pairs and connectors. It is dangerous to ignore this simple truth. Bill A. | ||
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| Re: Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, Andrew Wells, 6. Apr 2003 21:18 | ||
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| There is a great difference playing AA in a big multiway pot from last position instead of first. There is also a great difference when the board is semi-coordinated instead of gapped. Having raised AdAc up front with lots of cold callers I will continue to bet into boards like Ks 9s 5h, but not Ks Js Th. From late position I will sometimes risk a cheap card and wait until the turn to raise. If someone could make a gut shot or two pair on the turn when a raise would still be giving implied odds to call two cold, I'll often just look for something hopefully harmless on the turn and raise then instead. At least this way they either have to fold or make a mistake calling. If I do get rivered, sometimes they are tempted to play for a checkraise and I save a bet or decision on the end. Occasionally if I happen to win a large multiway pot with unimproved aces, I'll just say I got lucky and hit runner-runner blanks. I suspect the problem most players have with AA is that they get raised or checkraised on the turn, call and call again on the river simply for the sheer size of the pot. Any time you get played back at when you hold AA in a multiway pot you have to think it through and at least be prepared to let it go. So usually you should continue to bet and make lesser hands or good draws pay something instead of nothing even if they all have correct odds to continue, and wait until you get raised to decide what to do. | ||
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| Re: Treat AA w 6players = no set no bet - Mike?, noiseboy, 7. Apr 2003 11:59 | ||
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| when you have that many callers, and you just have a one pair hand, you have to realize it's EXTREMELY vulnerable. If there is a lot of action on the flop, you are probably in trouble. Anyway, in loose games, the best draw is often a better holding than the current best hand. Must admit, it's damn hard to lay down those AA's, even when it is the right thing to do! | ||
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| Re: Online Poker, NiceFella, 5. Apr 2003 12:38 | ||
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| Ross, I can empathize with your bad beat night. I feel your pain brother. Losing against "idiots" is especially frustrating, I know. That said, I think you played your AA poorly, and if you can bear criticism during your cranky time I think you need some perspective on how "unlucky" you got. I'm not a fan of limp-reraising at low limits. Limping premium hands preflop is the gateway to infinite suck-out misery at low limits. With AA you don't want a large field of loose opponents. Yes, going for a reraise was a fine plan, but the price of missing that reraise is catastrophic, so it's better to not be greedy, and come out swinging. Limp-reraising is a tricky play meant for tricky opponents. I know that others will disagree with me on this. After you bet and got raised on the flop, reraising is a fine play against just a few players, but against a field of SIX other players you have to question your chances. Only another ace can improve your hand. The pot is so big now that anyone with any hope is going to stay in. Save your money. Calling the river is a terrible play. There are possible straights, a flush, the board is paired, and you've had 6 opponents drawing all the way. River action came from a previously passive player, and then you called with a pair? You had plenty of clues that your aces were no good. Yes, the pot odds might have warranted a call at this point, but only because you helped to build the pot so much. I know you're very frustrated right now, but with time I think you'll come to the perspective that the sort of game you just played and got unlucky in is the very sort of game you want to be playing in: lots of loose idiots calling with anything. Yeah, it's volatile and frustrating, but with enough time it builds perspective and character, and hopefully profit. :-) | ||
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| Re: Online Poker, SendMoney, 5. Apr 2003 14:15 | ||
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| I still remember an interesting hand I had at Planet Poker in a $1-$2 Hold Em hand, loose/passive table. I'm on the BB with QQ, it's folded to the button who calls, SB calls, and I raise. Both players call. Flop come Q 9 8 rainbow. SB bets out, I raise, button 3 bets, SB folds I call. Button was a rather loose/poor player and I didn't figure him for 10-J but more likely for a hand like 10-7 or 7-6 betting on his draw, or maybe he even has two pair. The turn brings a 10, another rainbow card. I check and the button bets. I figure I'm up against a straight at this point so I call figuring I'm getting good enough implied odds to check/raise the pot on the river if the board pairs to give me the Queens full boat. River comes a 6 for a board of Q 9 8 10 6. I check, button bets, and I call for no other reason than the button has bluffed with middle or bottom pair in the past. Button shows pockets 7s for a straight made on the river. On the flop he's three betting vs. top set with an underpair to the board. Granted on the turn he picks up an open-ended draw, so his strategy to stay in the hand would be correct, but if I check why not take the free card with an incomplete hand? If a jack comes on the river the board plays, if a 7 comes on the river his set loses to mine, the only thing that could have saved him was a 6. Actually considering starting hands of QQ vs 77 with a Q 9 8 flop the only running cards that could have beat me were 7s on turn and river for quads, or 10 + 6 for a straight, or 6 + 5 for a straight. A few hands later I'm head up against the same player, I've got KK on the button, he's called with 22 from late position. I raise pre-flop, he calls. Flop comes Jd 7h 4h - I bet, he calls. Turn is Qs I bet, he calls. River is 2s - he bets out, I figure he must have made a weak two-pair but I call anyway since he's been bluffing, he turns over 22 for the small set on the river. Consider my QQ hand, and then losing to a 2 outter on the river? After the KK hand I left the table before I went on tilt. | ||
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