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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:20:33 PM PACIFIC |
 Bob Ciaffone's new Card Player Article, Mark, 4. Apr 2003 13:03 | ||
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| In the new Card Player, Bob Ciaffone's article about controversial hands brings up a controversial play (hence,the name of the article). Anyway, i disagree with his and Jim Brier's suggestion for the situation. I'll parapharse the article and would really like your opinions $10-20 hold'em You raise in middle pos, with AKo. 3 callers. Flop 973 rainbow. you bet, 1 caller. turn A. you bet, caller raises. the authors suggest folding here to the raise. the say that at the $10-20 level, very few people will raise the turn with only top pair, so folding is correct. they go on to say the caller probably has something like 33, 77, 99 or A9. My problem with this suggestion is, I would raise the turn if I had something like AQ,AJ, or A10. Some people i play against would even play an A8 to A6 that way. Some players would raise with a 4 flush if they suspected the bettor was bluffing . With the AQ, AJ, or A10, i would have called pre-flop and possibly the flop. On the turn my raising may depend on how well i know my opponent or what my present image is like, but i do throw out the occassional top pair top kicker raise i a situation like that. Anyway, i think the situation is alot more player dependant than the authors suggest, and i think that automatically folding here would be a mistake. mark | ||
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| Re: Bob Ciaffone's new Card Player Article, stdioh, 4. Apr 2003 15:45 | ||
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| on 4. Apr 2003 13:03 Mark wrote: > In the new Card Player, Bob Ciaffone's article about controversial hands brings > up a controversial play (hence,the name of the article). > > Anyway, i disagree with his and Jim Brier's suggestion for the situation. > > I'll parapharse the article and would really like your opinions > > $10-20 hold'em > You raise in middle pos, with AKo. 3 callers. > > Flop 973 rainbow. you bet, 1 caller. > > turn A. you bet, caller raises. > > the authors suggest folding here to the raise. the say that at the $10-20 > level, very few people will raise the turn with only top pair, so folding is > correct. they go on to say the caller probably has something like 33, 77, 99 or > A9. > > My problem with this suggestion is, I would raise the turn if I had something > like AQ,AJ, or A10. Some people i play against would even play an A8 to A6 that > way. Some players would raise with a 4 flush if they suspected the bettor was > bluffing . > > With the AQ, AJ, or A10, i would have called pre-flop and possibly the flop. > On the turn my raising may depend on how well i know my opponent or what my > present image is like, but i do throw out the occassional top pair top kicker > raise i a situation like that. > > Anyway, i think the situation is alot more player dependant than the authors > suggest, and i think that automatically folding here would be a mistake. > > mark Like just about any question in poker, the answer to this one is, "it depends," but in the general case, I would say that a fold here is usually correct. If you're playing an opponent whom you know to jam it with his AJ then by all means, but the fact of the matter is that a good player would have already folded his AJ preflop. AQ is a hand you could sucker, but there are a lot more hands that have you badly beat. I would say that most of the time you should make this fold, but if you have a really strong read that the raiser is on a worse ace, or if the raiser is just a ricoculous maniac, then you should three bet. I don't think that there is a valid argument out there for just calling. | ||
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| Re: Bob Ciaffone's new Card Player Article, Mark, 5. Apr 2003 10:01 | ||
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| I have some comments in the middle of your post > Like just about any question in poker, the answer to this one is, "it depends," but > in the general case, I would say that a fold here is usually correct. If you're > playing an opponent whom you know to jam it with his AJ then by all means, but the > fact of the matter is that a good player would have already folded his AJ preflop. At a tight table with good opponents, some would fold an AJ off to a pre-flop raise. But very few of the people i play against are capable of this. I've been in seen $5-10, $10-20 and pot limit games where people were calling cold with any two cards. I've watched higher limit games (10-20 adn pot limit) where people would rather 3-bet than fold AJ pre-flop. I agree the correct play is to fold, but i don't assume my opponents know, they usually prove they don't. >AQ is a hand you could sucker, but there are a lot more hands that have you badly beat. Can you give some examples? you have any pair (that didn't flop a set ) beat and any A. Without knowing the player you may be as good as 1:1 or 2:1 to win the pot. > I would say that most of the time you should make this fold, but if you have a really > strong read that the raiser is on a worse ace, or if the raiser is just a ricoculous > maniac, then you should three bet. I don't think that there is a valid argument out > there for just calling. good points mark | ||
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| Re: Bob Ciaffone's new Card Player Article, stdioh, 7. Apr 2003 09:55 | ||
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| > At a tight table with good opponents, some would fold an AJ off to a pre-flop raise. But > very few of the people i play against are capable of this. I've been in seen $5-10, > $10-20 and pot limit games where people were calling cold with any two cards. I've > watched higher limit games (10-20 adn pot limit) where people would rather 3-bet than fold > AJ pre-flop. > > I agree the correct play is to fold, but i don't assume my opponents know, they usually > prove they don't. This is a question of table texture and can't really be addressed in Ciaffone's article. You're at the 10-20 so you have to assume that they players are all other than giant fish. Half decent players fold their junk aces to a raise. The chance of an opponent having a worse ace is thus not zero, but is greatly diminished. > Can you give some examples? you have any pair (that didn't flop a set ) beat and any A. > Without knowing the player you may be as good as 1:1 or 2:1 to win the pot. Some examples? Any 2-pair beats you. Any set beats you. You are bet by anything better than 1 pair. Thus lots and lots and lots of hands beat you. Hand that beat you raise the turn. Hands that don't beat you very rarely raise the turn and few of them should be in at this point in the hand. | ||
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| Re: Bob Ciaffone's new Card Player Article, Mark, 7. Apr 2003 14:07 | ||
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| > > This is a question of table texture and can't really be addressed in Ciaffone's article. > You're at the 10-20 so you have to assume that they players are all other than giant fish. Half > decent players fold their junk aces to a raise. The chance of an opponent having a worse ace is > thus not zero, but is greatly diminished. > > > Can you give some examples? you have any pair (that didn't flop a set ) beat and any A. > > Without knowing the player you may be as good as 1:1 or 2:1 to win the pot. > > Some examples? Any 2-pair beats you. Any set beats you. You are bet by anything better than 1 > pair. Thus lots and lots and lots of hands beat you. Hand that beat you raise the turn. Hands > that don't beat you very rarely raise the turn and few of them should be in at this point in > the hand. If you assume that your opponents are decent players and will fold their junk Aces to a raise, shouldn't they also be folding small pairs. This only leaves A-9 ( questionable) and 99 as hands you opponent could have. Your pair of Aces with a King kicker will beat 10-10, JJ, QQ, KK, AQ, AJ (questionable),A-10(very questionable),and you will split with AK. Many of these hands could be called with prefiop and on the flop. I would also assume decent players would 3-bet with aces so we can rule them out. I think the situation is much more player dependant. Actually, yesterday the exact same situation came up in No limit holdem at planet poker. I raised pre flop my standard amout out of early middle position with AK suited. I had 1 loose-agg caller and 1 tight caller (both were behind me). the flop came all rags, i bet 1/2 the pot, and the loose-agg player called me. ( approx $10 in the pot) Ace comes on the turn. I bet the pot and the loose-agg player reraises all-in $24. Hmm..., i go to my notes. This player would have re-raised the flop with a pair or 2 pair. there is no flush and no str8 possible. What would he have called with pre-flop? AK, AQ, AJ, A10suited. he'd have reraised pre-flop with AA, KK. (Also, his raise put me all-in and i believed if he had a set, he would have made a bet i could easily call, but thats not a info available in limit play) So, unless he played an extremely ragged hand pre-flop, which he usually doesn't do, i have him beat. I put him on a smaller ace and call. He has AJ off, and I win a big pot. If the tight player had re-raised me i'd have folded. I really believe i made the right play as i had a good read on my opponent. mark | ||
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| Re: Bob Ciaffone's new Card Player Article, stdioh, 7. Apr 2003 14:47 | ||
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| > If you assume that your opponents are decent players and will fold their junk Aces to a raise, > shouldn't they also be folding small pairs. This only leaves A-9 ( questionable) and 99 as hands > you opponent could have. And when an opponent is three betting the turn, both of these start to look very realistic...especially A9...though I don't know many players who play A9o to a raise, most will if it is suited. For that matter, a lot of players have trouble throwing away A7 when it is suited. Also, there are a lot of players who know enough to chuck their crap aces, but will hold pocket pairs, even small ones. For one thing, most raises are of the big ace variety and the small pair can do ok on a ragged flop even if it isn't a set or an overpair. I think 77 is reasonable and I wouldn't be terribly shocked to see an otherwise marginally losing 10-20 player call with 33. > I would also assume decent players would 3-bet with aces so we can rule them out. Actually, a lot of players will cold call with their aces here. If the field has already been thinned, then the raise with the aces only serves to build the pot a little. I know that when I'm put in that position I will most often 3-bet but quite often cold call in hopes that I can take somebody by surprise when I raise a king high flop. > I think the situation is much more player dependant. Absolutely. Table texture is *everything* when discussing controversial hands. If there were a clear way to play it at any table, that would be the end of the controversy. > Actually, yesterday the exact same situation came up in No limit holdem at planet poker. I raised > pre flop my standard amout out of early middle position with AK suited. I had 1 loose-agg caller [snip] I'm going to cut this one off here Mark. First of all, what transpired in some situation isn't a good argument about what will transpire in the average situation. Secondly, comparing a nolimit game to a ring game is like comparing apples to volkswagans. Nonetheless, don't take my arguments as an outright disagreement with you. I think that there are a lot of games where playing it your way is the most sensible course of action. *most* 10-20s that I am familiar with are too educated for that sort of thing, but there are *many* 10-20s that are not. | ||
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