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New Player Needs HELP, Scott Andrews, 30. Mar 2003 09:26
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If I ramble on in this please forgive me because I have been extremely frustrated lately.

Here is the deal, I have been playing steady for around 8 months between trips to Detroit and a visit or two to AC and Vegas and, I read just about everything I can get my hands on mostly books by noteable authors. I feel and have been told that I am fairly good player.
But here is my problem, I have recently found a place in my area that has regular games and they only play Holdem which is also new to the area so the players are still under the idea that any two cards can win. Most of the people that play in these games are what I would consider bad players. I can always spot the one or two good players at the table. I don't have a large bank roll so 3-6 Kill is all I can afford to play. But the games are extremely loose and my good hands just keep getting cracked and I am not just talking about high pocket pairs I mean over cards with a high kicker losing to two pair. My raises in these game have no meaning at all because no one will fold or I should say very few. I am just at wits end with raiseing a kill pot with JJ under the gun when everyone but the button has passed and getting cracked by K 3 off suit beause king came on the river which is what the button called with. Almost all of the players are calling stations and I get slammed on the river. I am just looking for some advice on what to do in this type of situation. Someone please HELP!
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Re: New Player Needs HELP, Paul Stine, 30. Mar 2003 18:19
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on 30. Mar 2003 09:26 Scott Andrews wrote:
> If I ramble on in this please forgive me because I have been extremely
> frustrated lately.
>
> Here is the deal, I have been playing steady for around 8 months between
> trips to Detroit and a visit or two to AC and Vegas and, I read just about
> everything I can get my hands on mostly books by noteable authors. I feel and
> have been told that I am fairly good player.

First, congratulations on making the conscious decision to become a serious player and following through on that decison with reading books about poker. Second, as far as being told you are a fairly good player, well, you gotta take the bad with the good. I mean, there have been instances where a player, after being told that he is fairly good, begins to think that he, consequently, *deserves* to win. That kind of thinking often precedes disasterous results, both in the short and long term. Remember poker education, like other types of education, is a journey, not a destination. However, the commentator has given you a nice little gift of information; namely the gift of letting you know that he is thinking about how the other players play. (Knowledge of your opponent.)

> But here is my problem, I have recently found a place in my area that has
> regular games and they only play Holdem which is also new to the area so the
> players are still under the idea that any two cards can win. Most of the people
> that play in these games are what I would consider bad players. I can always
> spot the one or two good players at the table. I don't have a large bank roll so
> 3-6 Kill is all I can afford to play. But the games are extremely loose and my
> good hands just keep getting cracked and I am not just talking about high pocket
> pairs I mean over cards with a high kicker losing to two pair. My raises in
> these game have no meaning at all because no one will fold or I should say very
> few. I am just at wits end with raiseing a kill pot with JJ under the gun when
> everyone but the button has passed and getting cracked by K 3 off suit beause
> king came on the river which is what the button called with. Almost all of the
> players are calling stations and I get slammed on the river. I am just looking
> for some advice on what to do in this type of situation. Someone please HELP!

Damn, calm down! Try some deep breaths: in through the nose, out through the mouth.

OK, now let's go back to the "Theory of Poker", it should be somewhere in that big pile of poker book you have read. If it ins't, go to www.conjelco.com or some other website that sells poker books and buY it! There is a section in the book that states Skanlsky's "Fundamental Theorem of Poker." It goes something like this:

"Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose. Conversely, every time opponents play their hands differently from the way they would have if they could see all your cards, you gain; and every time they play their hands the same way they would have played if they could see all your cards, you lose."

Now, let's re-evalute those "losses" with a quiz:

1.) You raise in a kill pot with JJ under the gun and everyone passes except the button who calls with "The Limburger", K 3 offsuit.
i.) According to the FToP, you:
A. Gained, or B. Lost
ii.) According to the FToP, your opponent:
A. Gained, or B. Lost

2.) In the same hand the flop comes ragged and offsuit, you bet and The Limburger calls.
i.) According to the FToP, you:
A. Gained, or B. Lost
ii.) According to the FToP, your opponent:
A. Gained, or B. Lost

3.) The turn is yet another miss for you and your opponent. You bet and your opponent once again calls.
i.) According to the FToP, you:
A. Gained, or B. Lost
ii.) According to the FToP, your opponent:
A. Gained, or B. Lost

4.) The river is one of three kings left unseen and now you opponent has top pair, you bet and he calls.
i.) According to the FToP, you:
A. Gained, or B. Lost
ii.) According to the FToP, your opponent:
A. Gained, or B. Lost


Answers:
1i.) A 1ii.) B
2i.) A 2ii.) B
3i.) A 3ii.) B
4i.) B 4ii.) B

Not bad, you gained on 3 of 4 actions. Your opponent, on the other hand, lost on 4 out of 4 actions. (Geez, what a mullet that guy must be!)

So, what can you do in this type of situation?

Rejoice! Buy the guy another drink or another joint or (this is one of my faves) a $2 betting ticket on his team in the game he is watching on the TV. Players like this are who buy the rest of us new clothes, cars, and houses. They put money into our retirement accounts. Woo Hoo!

Here is another thing you can do in this situation: Don't say a damn word! At least, not a cross one and not a sarcastic one. If you didn't show your hand on the end (You didn't show it unless you had to, right?) then you can comment that, "D'oh!, I was beind all the way, I had QJo!" Don't worry about him contrasting your comment with your pre-flop action, he is too busy dealing with his emotions and this would be such a foreign concept to him that he would never thing of it.

If your blood is boiling and you're so pissed off you can't see, take a walk. However, DO NOT KILL THE GOLDEN GOOSE. (By the way, if your blood is boiling and you're so pissed off you can't see, you need to remove the emotion from your game.)

What you can do is suck it up and play the next hand making correct decisions on every play, because that is what you get paid for. And you *will* get paid, and handsomely.

Be cognizant that loose players increase your variance. This is knowledge, use it to your advantage, use it to temper your perseverance when the cards are not falling your way.

Paul Stine
College Station, TX
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Re: New Player Needs HELP, Scott Andrews, 30. Mar 2003 20:11
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Thank you Paul I greatly appreciate your response. And as I write this I am getting ready to reread Theory of Poker. And thanks again I will remember to buy that player another drink the next time I play against him LOL.

Scott
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Re: New Player Needs HELP, stdioh, 31. Mar 2003 09:10
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Listen to Paul - he is either very old or he is wise beyond his years.

I would encapsulate the standard advice thusly -> you're playing with terrible players so you need to adjust your play against them. This means that you need to play very tight so that you only enter pots that you are a favourite to win. You must play very agressively, since you want to make them pay for all their bad calls. And you must be prepared to take a *lot* of bad beats.

Actually, it is possible for a game to get so mythically fishy that it becomes only marginally beatable. This is a phenomenon known as schooling. The idea is that you have so many players calling with any two cards that somebody is bound to make a good hand every single hand. It then becomes very much less valuable to have great hands unless you make monsters with them too. Having AK and hitting a K is worthless when two of your opponents have already hit two pair and 5 of them are drawing to straights and flushes. When a game gets like this, the rake can eat you alive when you're trying to scrape together winning hands.

Of course, one way to combat schooling is with preflop raises. I find that when I'm at a table like that I can raise with limping hands and thin the field at least a little. So I'm holding Ah5h, I'm just going to limp and hope to make the nut flush...if I don't I'm gone, unless I hit a miracle like 55X on the board. Now if I'm holding JQ, which I might normally throw away in early position, I'm going to raise with it. The idea is that I want to knock out some of the crud. Even though I'm paying too much for this very marginal hand, I'm still getting tonnes of callers. Now if I can knock it down to 4 or 5 opponents with my raise then if I hit my hand I have a decent chance of winning and the fish that are left in the hand will still pay me off much more than they should.

Of course playing in a game like this is *very* swingy, so it's possible that you can be playing better than all of the players and still take a total drubbing. And if it is really that bad, then consider taking on a backer and playing a higher limit. If you can get somebody to split your roll with you (they get half your winnings and pay half your losses) then play in a very beatable game at a higher limit then you can make more for yourself and make your backer very happy. Of course you'll need to convince your backer that you're beating the game and make sure that you only go in with somebody you trust to be able to lose and not kick your teeth out.

Anyhow, to make a long story short, try to get in a game not quite as fishy or to engineer the game, via your play, to be not so fishy.

Oh, and one other thing. If you're a new player and you are pretty good then there is one immutable fact - you're not as good as you think you are. This is the nature of poker - it is a game filled with players who think they are better than they actually are...that's the only way that the pros can pay the bills after all. So take is slow and don't get in over your head. No amount of reading can make up for the experience you get sitting at the tables.
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Re: New Player Needs HELP, Mr.Fox, 31. Mar 2003 12:05
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Practice by playing the free games at planetpoker or paradisepoker online. What you describe is very similar to the way people play with fake money and it took me a little bit to learn how to beat it but you can play a ton of hands fast that way and get a handle on it. One tip would be to play more suited cards or connectors. With tons of people in the game bluffing is useless and your pair of pocket kings doesn't have great odds. Go for the draws to flushes and straights and keep folding most everything else. when you hit those draws the pots will be huge and make up for the ones you didn't catch and folded after the flop. Good luck!
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Re: New Player Needs HELP, 4 POKER, 4. Apr 2003 00:24
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A SOLID PLAYER WILL OVERCOME THE LOOSE AND CRAZY GAMES.
IT IS GREAT THAT YOU ARE READING BOOKS AND LEARNING FROM THEM, REMEMBER, POKER IS A GAME OF INSTINCT AS WELL, AND IS VERY IMPORTANT IN HOLDEM. YOU MUST BE ABLE TO READ YOUR OPPONENT AND NOT JUST PLAY YOUR HAND... YOU MUST BE ABLE TO PLAY HIS HAND AS WELL. PLAYING GOOD STARTINGS IS KEY, PLAYING THEM WELL (example), MISREPRESENT WHAT YOU REALLY HAVE, KNOWING WHEN TO BET, RAISE, AND REALLY KNOWING WHEN TO FOLD.
WHEN PLAYING IN LOOSE HOLDEM GAMES, YOU ARE ABLE TO COME IN WITH LESSER HOLDINGS, MEANING MANY HANDS THAT YOU WOULD NORMALLY TOSS NOW BECOME PLAYABLE DUE TO GREAT POT ODDS. BE CAREFUL OF YOUR POSITION, THOUGH. HANDS CLOSER TO THE BUTTON WITH NO PREFLOP RAISE CAN BECOME VERY PROFITABLE. HANDS LIKE 5-6 SUITED AND 9-10 SUITED IN A MULTI-WAY POT PREFLOP ARE DEFFINATELY PLAYABLE.
YOU MUST HOWEVER FEEL COMFORTABLE PLAYING THESE HANDS. IF YOU ONLY PLAY AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, ETC. YOU WILL BE GIVING AWAY TOO MUCH. YOU MUST ADJUST IF YOU WILL BE PLAYING IN THESE LOOSE GAMES. JUST DON'T ADJUST TO BAD CALLS, CALLING OUT OF POSITION WITH WEAKER HOLDINGS, AND CALLING EXTRA BETS WITH LESS THEN A PREMIUM STARTING HAND. KNOW WHEN TO PLAY THE JUNK(5-6, 9-10) AND KNOW WHEN THOSE HANDS WILL NOT BE PROFITABLE. PLAYING THEM HEADS UP WILL NOT WORK FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE YET TO OUTPLAY YOUR OPPONENT. BESIDES, THOSE HANDS USUALLY TEND TO PLAY BETTER IN A MULTIWAY POT CLOSE OR ON THE BUTTON.
HEY, WHEN YOU GET MORE OF A FEEL FOR POKER, YOU WILL EVEN PUT A RAISE IN WITH THOSE HANDS ONCE IN AWHILE!
A SOLID PLAYER CAN ALWAYS MAKE THOSE IRRATIC PLAYS BECAUSE HE KNOWS WHEN TO CONTINUE WITH HIS BETTING AND HE'LL KNOW WHEN TO THROW IT AWAY!
WHEN PLAYING HEADS UP IN A POT, TRY TO THINK OF WHAT YOUR OPPONENT IS HOLDING, AND ADJUST YOUR BETTING TECHNIQUES ACCORDINGLY. DON'T BE TOO RIGID, MAKE MOVES ONCE IN AWHILE, PRETEND THAT YOU'RE THERE TO GAMBLE AS WELL, EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE NOT!
GOOD LUCK, KEEP PRACTICING YOUR GAME, AND MOST OF ALL, HAVE FUN! GOOD SOLID POKER PAYS OFF.
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Re: New Player Needs HELP, nicnac, 4. Apr 2003 09:13
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You must love the game. Just play straight forward and forget about the fancy play for advanced players you need in the gigher limits. Play more suited connectors.... they can make a big hand and that's what you want against all loose calling stations. They are much easier to get rid of if you misses than JJ.
The only bad thing about this game is your bankroll. Why not making some money first at the 2-4 table. NEVER LET YOUR BANKROLL INFLUENCE THE WAY YOU PLAY YOUR GAME.
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