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Premium hands getting murdered, what can I do?, SendMoney, 29. Mar 2003 05:42
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My latest session was a very difficult one. I was dealt 8 premium hands during a 4 hour session AA KK KK AKs QQ QQ QQ QQ at a loose/passive low limit table and lost every single time. AA lost to straight holding 3-5 suited. KK #1 lost to a player limping with AA who only called my bets - we were both over an unpaired board. KK #2 lost to trips 3s made on the turn by a player holding 3-4 suited. AKs didn't catch the flop at all and was folded due to heavy betting - it would not have won anyway. QQ #1 lost to a J-6o when the flop came 9 6 6. QQ #2 lost to a straight made with 10-4o when the Q J 9 flop followed with a K on the turn (lost to same player who had J-6o). QQ #3 lost to a river ace from a player holding A-7o who had flopped a 7. QQ #4 lost to a flush on the river.

All of these hands were raised and/or re-raised pre-flop. One of my QQ flopped as a set, and all the others were over the board, with only one flop showing a paired board. All flops were bet and/or raised. The only pocket pair that came through for me was pocket 10s, which flopped a set and got quads on the turn.

0 for 8 is a pretty horrid for the premium hands - and it's not so much the losing that bothers me as it is the amount of money lost when they don't hold up. As a player you're pretty much obliged to bet your pocket pairs a certain way, that is, raise them before the flop, and bet and raise them when you flop a set or when you're over the board. This strategy might pay off pretty well when you win, but it will cost you plenty when you lose.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this and I'm starting to think that when playing low limit Hold Em pocket pairs might be much more effective if played a bit less aggresively pre-flop. The logic is - if the pot isn't as big, players will be more likely to fold. Another factor is if you don't raise your big pocket pairs you could possibly get more money out of your big hands.

Say you hold AA on the button, and you get a raise ahead of you, but you simply call instead of re-raising. The flop comes A 6 6. Now someone with AKs, KK or QQ might come out firing, and someone else with 6-7 suited would raise them - you'd be along for the ride to the bank with your only concern being pocket 6s, a running 6, or some absurd 1250 to 1 runner runner non-sense. Meanwhile if you re-raise or cap it pre-flop you may well have crippled your earning potential if others put you on AA.

I'm starting to think that large pocket pairs are probably great in tournaments or no-limit games when you can go all-in pre-flop when you're heads up or against 2 players. In looses passive games with 5-6 players I think they should be played a bit less aggresively. In multi-way pots I've found that consecutive and one-gap suited cards are drawing out a lot, and that's not to mention the problem of small pocket pairs flopping sets.

I'm not saying you shouldn't play your big pocket pairs, but it might not be the worst idea to take a little off. I mean tell me if this sounds familiar - you're on the button with two limpers from middle position and you're dealt KK, you raise, the SB folds, the BB calls, and the two limpers call. The flop comes As 8h 9h. 1st player bets, 2nd player calls, figuring you've got 2 outs vs. an ace or flopped set you fold. Was that really worth the raise?

I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea to mix in the occasional raise pre-flop with smaller pocket pairs such as 77 or 88 and bet the snot out of them when you flop a set. People will probably put you on a pocket pair over the board and be more inclined to draw against you, which will make you more if they don't improve or if they make a straight or flush and you make a full house with a paired board.

I'm also thinking of mixing in the occasional pre-flop raise in mult-way pots with some of the better drawing hands such as 10-J suited, 9-10 suited, and 8-9 suited. I figure if other players are gonna draw out on you, it's only fair to turn the tables.
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Re: Premium hands getting murdered, what can I do?, Mr.Fox, 29. Mar 2003 06:42
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The odds break against you sometimes but you played those big pocket pairs the right way. Next time you get 8 of em maybe you'll win 7 times and if you have been less agressive in your betting you'll win less money with them. Hurts to lose with so many good hands but flip a coin 8 times and see what you get. The likelyhood that you'll get the most common outcome (4 heads and 4 tails) is way below 50%. 8 hands just isn't enough to base anyhting on and if you played a thousand of those hands you would definitely do best betting them like you have been. I do feel your pain though. I was terribly excited when my A Q paired up in an online tournament last week only to be beaten by a set of 8's by some fool who stayed in with my raises and got two 8's at turn and river on his 8 4 unsuited. It hurts but I would have to play it again the same way next time, raises and all. Good luck! Fox
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Re: Premium hands getting murdered, what can I do?, timmer, 29. Mar 2003 07:15
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Bummerz,

each hand you played had certain equity except the QQ vs AA and there the AA actually gave you a few bets by just calling along. remember , wagers not lost are equivalent to wagers won so you actually won something there. As hard as it seems to be dont be results orientated (sp ?) .

Just so you dont feel like the lone ranger I played for three hours in a game against total sheep . It was one of those game where expectancy was about 4 BB per hour after rake . My result,? -11 BB. It happens to every one. it just happens less to who play their best game all the time.


on 29. Mar 2003 05:42 SendMoney wrote:
> My latest session was a very difficult one. I was dealt 8 premium hands during a
> 4 hour session AA KK KK AKs QQ QQ QQ QQ at a loose/passive low limit table and
> lost every single time. AA lost to straight holding 3-5 suited. KK #1 lost to a
> player limping with AA who only called my bets - we were both over an unpaired
> board. KK #2 lost to trips 3s made on the turn by a player holding 3-4 suited.
> AKs didn't catch the flop at all and was folded due to heavy betting - it would
> not have won anyway. QQ #1 lost to a J-6o when the flop came 9 6 6. QQ #2 lost
> to a straight made with 10-4o when the Q J 9 flop followed with a K on the turn
> (lost to same player who had J-6o). QQ #3 lost to a river ace from a player
> holding A-7o who had flopped a 7. QQ #4 lost to a flush on the river.
>
> All of these hands were raised and/or re-raised pre-flop. One of my QQ flopped
> as a set, and all the others were over the board, with only one flop showing a
> paired board. All flops were bet and/or raised. The only pocket pair that came
> through for me was pocket 10s, which flopped a set and got quads on the turn.
>
> 0 for 8 is a pretty horrid for the premium hands - and it's not so much the
> losing that bothers me as it is the amount of money lost when they don't hold
> up. As a player you're pretty much obliged to bet your pocket pairs a certain
> way, that is, raise them before the flop, and bet and raise them when you flop a
> set or when you're over the board. This strategy might pay off pretty well when
> you win, but it will cost you plenty when you lose.
>
> I've been doing a lot of thinking about this and I'm starting to think that
> when playing low limit Hold Em pocket pairs might be much more effective if
> played a bit less aggresively pre-flop. The logic is - if the pot isn't as big,
> players will be more likely to fold. Another factor is if you don't raise your
> big pocket pairs you could possibly get more money out of your big hands.
>
> Say you hold AA on the button, and you get a raise ahead of you, but you simply
> call instead of re-raising. The flop comes A 6 6. Now someone with AKs, KK or QQ
> might come out firing, and someone else with 6-7 suited would raise them - you'd
> be along for the ride to the bank with your only concern being pocket 6s, a
> running 6, or some absurd 1250 to 1 runner runner non-sense. Meanwhile if you
> re-raise or cap it pre-flop you may well have crippled your earning potential if
> others put you on AA.
>
> I'm starting to think that large pocket pairs are probably great in tournaments
> or no-limit games when you can go all-in pre-flop when you're heads up or
> against 2 players. In looses passive games with 5-6 players I think they should
> be played a bit less aggresively. In multi-way pots I've found that consecutive
> and one-gap suited cards are drawing out a lot, and that's not to mention the
> problem of small pocket pairs flopping sets.
>
> I'm not saying you shouldn't play your big pocket pairs, but it might not be
> the worst idea to take a little off. I mean tell me if this sounds familiar -
> you're on the button with two limpers from middle position and you're dealt KK,
> you raise, the SB folds, the BB calls, and the two limpers call. The flop comes
> As 8h 9h. 1st player bets, 2nd player calls, figuring you've got 2 outs vs. an
> ace or flopped set you fold. Was that really worth the raise?
>
> I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea to mix in the occasional
> raise pre-flop with smaller pocket pairs such as 77 or 88 and bet the snot out
> of them when you flop a set. People will probably put you on a pocket pair over
> the board and be more inclined to draw against you, which will make you more if
> they don't improve or if they make a straight or flush and you make a full house
> with a paired board.
>
> I'm also thinking of mixing in the occasional pre-flop raise in mult-way pots
> with some of the better drawing hands such as 10-J suited, 9-10 suited, and 8-9
> suited. I figure if other players are gonna draw out on you, it's only fair to
> turn the tables.
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Re: Premium hands getting murdered, what can I do?, Mark, 29. Mar 2003 17:36
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My responses are after each section you wrote


> My latest session was a very difficult one. I was dealt 8 premium hands during a
> 4 hour session AA KK KK AKs QQ QQ QQ QQ at a loose/passive low limit table and
> lost every single time. AA lost to straight holding 3-5 suited. KK #1 lost to a
> player limping with AA who only called my bets - we were both over an unpaired
> board. KK #2 lost to trips 3s made on the turn by a player holding 3-4 suited.
> AKs didn't catch the flop at all and was folded due to heavy betting - it would
> not have won anyway. QQ #1 lost to a J-6o when the flop came 9 6 6. QQ #2 lost
> to a straight made with 10-4o when the Q J 9 flop followed with a K on the turn
> (lost to same player who had J-6o). QQ #3 lost to a river ace from a player
> holding A-7o who had flopped a 7. QQ #4 lost to a flush on the river.
>
> All of these hands were raised and/or re-raised pre-flop. One of my QQ flopped
> as a set, and all the others were over the board, with only one flop showing a
> paired board. All flops were bet and/or raised. The only pocket pair that came
> through for me was pocket 10s, which flopped a set and got quads on the turn.
>
> 0 for 8 is a pretty horrid for the premium hands - and it's not so much the
> losing that bothers me as it is the amount of money lost when they don't hold
> up. As a player you're pretty much obliged to bet your pocket pairs a certain
> way, that is, raise them before the flop, and bet and raise them when you flop a
> set or when you're over the board. This strategy might pay off pretty well when
> you win, but it will cost you plenty when you lose.
>
> I've been doing a lot of thinking about this and I'm starting to think that
> when playing low limit Hold Em pocket pairs might be much more effective if
> played a bit less aggresively pre-flop. The logic is - if the pot isn't as big,
> players will be more likely to fold. Another factor is if you don't raise your
> big pocket pairs you could possibly get more money out of your big hands.

You only want to play big pocket pairs against a few opponents, that is some of the logic for raising. If you don't raise you'll have even more opponents drawing against you. By raising, you thin the field, and give yourself better odds of winning. Also, people who call you without decent hands are making big mistakes.


This might be hard to believe now, but you really want your opponents to make those mistakes. Every time they do, you are expected to make more money. You want your opponents drawing to gutshot straights and ragged two pair, they won't make those hands very often and they will pay you off consistantly. It took me a while to fully believe this, but it is true.


> Say you hold AA on the button, and you get a raise ahead of you, but you simply
> call instead of re-raising. The flop comes A 6 6. Now someone with AKs, KK or QQ
> might come out firing, and someone else with 6-7 suited would raise them - you'd
> be along for the ride to the bank with your only concern being pocket 6s, a
> running 6, or some absurd 1250 to 1 runner runner non-sense. Meanwhile if you
> re-raise or cap it pre-flop you may well have crippled your earning potential if
> others put you on AA.


You have to under stand that AA will only win 33% of the time against 9 opponents. the more people who fold pre-flop, the more of an edge you get. Also, most of the time you are not going to improve a pocket pair. 1 in 7 times you will flop a set, so 6 times your pair will have to stand on its own. by not raising, you are giving the limpers and the BB a free chance to draw.

Also, at the table you described, you will not cripple you earnings potenetial by raising, because you already stated that 4-5 people will call you. By limping you are actually loosing money and allowing more people in the pot.

> I'm starting to think that large pocket pairs are probably great in tournaments
> or no-limit games when you can go all-in pre-flop when you're heads up or
> against 2 players. In looses passive games with 5-6 players I think they should
> be played a bit less aggresively. In multi-way pots I've found that consecutive
> and one-gap suited cards are drawing out a lot, and that's not to mention the
> problem of small pocket pairs flopping sets.
>
> I'm not saying you shouldn't play your big pocket pairs, but it might not be
> the worst idea to take a little off. I mean tell me if this sounds familiar -
> you're on the button with two limpers from middle position and you're dealt KK,
> you raise, the SB folds, the BB calls, and the two limpers call. The flop comes
> As 8h 9h. 1st player bets, 2nd player calls, figuring you've got 2 outs vs. an
> ace or flopped set you fold. Was that really worth the raise?


Your problem may have something to do with your post flop play. With 5 or 6 opponents calling your raise, you can't get married to you big pair unless the board is favorable. When you had QQ and floped a Set with 9, J, Q, you have to know that anyone with a 10 is going to draw. when the K came on the turn you should have been very worried and slowed down. (Maybe you did slow down)

If you raise pre-flop and the flop or turn becomes scary for you, you only loose 1-2 big bets if you can release you hand. When you marry it, it will cost you 4 or more big bets.


> I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea to mix in the occasional
> raise pre-flop with smaller pocket pairs such as 77 or 88 and bet the snot out
> of them when you flop a set. People will probably put you on a pocket pair over
> the board and be more inclined to draw against you, which will make you more if
> they don't improve or if they make a straight or flush and you make a full house
> with a paired board.
>
> I'm also thinking of mixing in the occasional pre-flop raise in mult-way pots
> with some of the better drawing hands such as 10-J suited, 9-10 suited, and 8-9
> suited. I figure if other players are gonna draw out on you, it's only fair to
> turn the tables.

I know it can be frustrating, but if you don't bet those hands you are costing yourself money. You must learn that you want those idiots drawing against you, just be ready to release you hand whent he board becomes connected or suited and someone gives you action.

mark

on last thing, your hand is only a good hand if it beats your opponents AND makes you money. AA is great before the flop, but it is only as good as the flop will let it be. It does not automatically deserved to win.


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Re: Premium hands getting murdered, what can I do?, Raddock, 30. Mar 2003 07:36
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2 things:

1.) You'll always have inexplicably bad runs of cards, throughout your entire poker career. The trick is to minimize your losses during these horrible times. Have a sufficient bankroll, and ride it out. It WILL end.
2.) If you're a very good player, and you're getting the best of it just by sitting down, BE SITTING DOWN AT A HIGHER LIMIT, where many of these beats would never have taken place. The higher you go, the more you can attribute any losses to being outplayed, and any wins to being a superior player. Tough stretches will still come, unfathomable events will still transpire, but they will happen less (because anyone who plays 3/4s for a raise, J6s, etc. will be broke, and therefore not in the game long enough to hurt you over any significant stretch). Obviously, you'll have a whole new set of problem against better competition, but you'll just have to adapt.
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Re: Premium hands getting murdered, what can I do?, stdioh, 31. Mar 2003 09:16
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When you play against terrible players, bad beats happen a lot more than when you play against good players. Just remember that they pay you off most of the time when they are drawing to 2-outers. It's rough and it sucks and there's nothing you can do about it but go for a walk and play your A game. It is precisely for this reason that I moved up in limit. The goal is to find a limit that you can beat for the most money and sometimes that means moving up to play with better opponents if you think you can have control over the table and fold people off their draws when you need to.
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Re: Premium hands getting murdered, what can I do?, noiseboy, 1. Apr 2003 16:30
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Keep playing those big pairs aggressively, just keep in mind you have to put on the brakes, and perhaps even fold when you are pretty sure you are beat. There are certain situations, like when an A falls on the flop and you have KK, where your normally great hand isn't any good. When you have AA and the flop is three suited and you don't have that suit, then the turn puts another of that suit down, even the mighty AA's might well be folded with action.

Just remember that when you raise with big pairs, a lot of the time you WANT people to stay in with nothing, you will win a lower percentage of the pots, but your raise is for value, so that when you do win the pot is huge.

Lastly, don't worry too much, those premium hands will win you money over time, the swings in those loose games can be rough, but those are exactly the people who you want to play against.
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