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Server Time: 8/21/2008 9:27:03 PM PACIFIC |
 I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, SoCalPat, 28. Mar 2003 00:52 | ||
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| Apologies in advance for rambling I've been trying to take my modest bankroll online, and keep busting out. Of course, the $$$ is small and not hurting me financially (I've lost about 5-6 $50 "bankrolls") My streaks of undisciplined play are costly, and when I have a made hand, I'm a veritable ATM at the river. I wouldn't say I'm loose, but I know I'm aggressive. How 'bout firm (tight pre-flop, loose bordering on maniacal post-flop) aggressive? Tonight, I think I reached a new low. Down about 3-5ths of my bankroll, I just started playing like a sucker. Played 92o in MP for the first time ever in a pay game, flop came 9 high, turn brought the 2 for two pair, but lose to a straight when the river brings a 6. Probably good that I lost that hand, otherwise, I might have been converted to the "dark side". Yuk, yuk, yuk. I know I'll come back. I know enough about the game, and am always willing to learn more. I enjoy it, and I enjoy competition. Any of you out there bust out several times before it became profitable? I'd like to hear some of your stories. | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, Snorbolus, 28. Mar 2003 01:44 | ||
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| Hello So Cal, Yes, the first time that I moved up the limits I bust out. I think that it was the aggressiveness of their play that distroyed my edge. As soon as your opponents are even a little bit better than truly awful, loose, passive then you just can't afford to play trash. The reason you can't play trash is not because it doesn't often get hit by the flop. It is because those times when the flop does hit it will frequently be 2nd or 3rd best hand. Even when your crappy starting hand is best on the flop the will be lots of potential for players with better starting cards to suck out on you. This is where all of your money goes. If you play shitty cards the best that you can hope for is to miss the flop completly and have a second chance to rethink the bad idea of playing them in the first place. Once you have masterd the art of not playing shitty starting hands, even when you are bored, the next thing that you have to do if you want to show a profit at anything but the very lowest limits is to know something about your opponents. You don't need to know much to begin with. Just who is playing well and who is playing badly. Try to keep out of the way of the good players. If they are in a pot don't get involved yourself with anything even a little marginal. Think about what makes the bad players bad. Do they chace too much? If so raise them more with marginal holdings (assuming that other, good players are not also still showing fight for that pot). Do they always slow play? If so be more careful if scare cards come on later streets. Hope that this helps some. Snorbolus on 28. Mar 2003 00:52 SoCalPat wrote: > Apologies in advance for rambling > > I've been trying to take my modest bankroll online, and keep busting out. Of > course, the $$$ is small and not hurting me financially (I've lost about 5-6 $50 > "bankrolls") > > My streaks of undisciplined play are costly, and when I have a made hand, I'm a > veritable ATM at the river. I wouldn't say I'm loose, but I know I'm aggressive. > How 'bout firm (tight pre-flop, loose bordering on maniacal post-flop) > aggressive? > > Tonight, I think I reached a new low. Down about 3-5ths of my bankroll, I just > started playing like a sucker. Played 92o in MP for the first time ever in a > pay game, flop came 9 high, turn brought the 2 for two pair, but lose to a > straight when the river brings a 6. > > Probably good that I lost that hand, otherwise, I might have been converted to > the "dark side". Yuk, yuk, yuk. > > I know I'll come back. I know enough about the game, and am always willing to > learn more. I enjoy it, and I enjoy competition. Any of you out there bust out > several times before it became profitable? I'd like to hear some of your > stories. > | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, stdioh, 28. Mar 2003 07:26 | ||
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| Hi SoCalPat. Playing garbage cards is an addiction and it is one that you must break. I know how hard it is when you keep getting punished for making the right move, but you need to make the right move anyway. The problem with these hands is not that they don't win enough, but that they are often dominated by better hands. For instance what happens when you play K7 and hit a king? You're almost certainly beaten by a higher king and have a 3-outer to hit your kicker. Likewise, if the flop is 7 high, chances are great that somebody will have an overpair or make a straight, etc. Next, I want to adress your playing tight before the flop (92?) and loose after. I should point out that it is ok to be a little looser preflop, so long as you play the flop well and fold when you don't have the best of it. Paying a bet to see the flop isn't all that expensive. What does get expensive is calling down bets to the river on hands that you are not going to win. Don't be a rock, but perhaps you need to be a little weaker after the flop. | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, SoCalPat, 28. Mar 2003 13:44 | ||
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| I don't play garbage cards -- not pre-flop, anyway. The situation in mention was purely by design (I played like a sucker ...) because I was burned out and didn't care what the results were. I think what I play, and how I bet, pre-flop is the strongest part of my game -- when I'm in the right frame of mind. Obviously, I'm not right in the head playing 92o, and I admitted as such. | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, stdioh, 28. Mar 2003 15:00 | ||
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| ok...that's fair. Nonetheless, your game preflop can be more or less robotic and you'll be ok. If you're playing against the worst kind of fish then this alone will be enough to make you profitable. If you're playing with slightly better opponents you need to play better after the flop too. This often means being agressive. on 28. Mar 2003 13:44 SoCalPat wrote: > I don't play garbage cards -- not pre-flop, anyway. The situation in mention was purely by > design (I played like a sucker ...) because I was burned out and didn't care what the > results were. > > I think what I play, and how I bet, pre-flop is the strongest part of my game -- when I'm > in the right frame of mind. Obviously, I'm not right in the head playing 92o, and I > admitted as such. | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, noiseboy, 28. Mar 2003 09:40 | ||
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| Buy Cloutier's Championship Hold'em and read it religiously. If your problem is busting out, you need to play a more careful style until you bankroll gets large enough that you don't have to worry so much. I went through the very same thing you are, busting out when I was missing my draws or got a run of bad cards. Anyway, Cloutier's book has helped me a lot in that regard because tournament play is more careful, since you can't go back to your pocket, and if you are nursing a small bankroll into a big one, this is much the same idea. You want to be really tight with your starting hands and be careful with draws unless you have really good odds. You play really aggressive when you have a real hand to protect it. You don't really lose that much by passing on some of the marginal situations when, in a loose game, you are going to get dealt another hand that might be pocket AA's next round, and you might get five people calling a raise with crap like 7-5 offsuit and A-rag. Try to exploit the obvious situations and big advantages, and try to dodge a lot of the murky I-might-have-the-best-hand-but-I'm-not-sure situations. Hope this helps. | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, shorn, 28. Mar 2003 09:47 | ||
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| One more thing to add is that buying in for only $50 (regardless of the limit you are playing) doesn't give you much breathing room for a few bad sessions. I think the minimum you should buy in for is 100 big bets at the limit of your choice. This serves two purposes: one, you can handle a bad run of cards without affecting your ability to continue to play that limit, and two: when that bad run of cards comes (and it will whether you play tight or not), your play won't be affected as much by the "Oh shit, if I play this hand and lose, my bankroll is gone." That CANNOT be a consideration when making choices at the table. I think it best if you come back the next time when you can buy in for an aggregate of your 5-6 buy-ins so you can play relaxed and make te right decisions. Good luck. Steve | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, 4 POKER, 4. Apr 2003 01:32 | ||
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| FIRST OF ALL, THE ONLY WAY THAT POKER CAN BECOME PROFITABLE IS IF YOU HAVE DISCIPLINE. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY OF GETTING AROUND THAT. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH YOU KNOW ABOUT THE GAME. IF YOU LOSE YOUR DISCIPLINE IN ANY ONE GIVEN SESSION, YOU MOST DEFFINATELY WILL COME OUT ON THE LOSING END. LACK OF DISCIPLINE MEANS, PLAYING BAD HANDS OVER AND OVER 'CAUSE YOU TOOK A BAD BEAT TWO HOURS AGO. IT ALSO MEANS PLAYING LONG HOURS AND LOSING YOUR FOCUS AND YOUR PURPOSE OF BEING THERE. IF YOU JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ARE NOT PUTTING YOUR LIFE SAVINGS IN JEOPARDY, THEN PLAY ANY WAY YOU'D LIKE. HOWEVER, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY AND WOULD LIKE TO SHOW A NICE PROFIT FROM IT, THEN YOU MUST MAKE SOME SERIOUS CHANGES. YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR DISCIPLINE, EVER. I MEAN NEVER. POKER IS A GAME OF SKILL AND A LOT OF LUCK. THAT IS WHY EVERYONE CAN PLAY! SO IF YOU TAKE A BAD BEAT, SHAKE IT OFF, GO TO THE NEXT HAND AND FORGRT ABOUT IT. YOU CAN TAKE A BREAK, QUIT THE SESSION, WHATEVER IT TAKES FOR YOU TO STAY IN CONTROL, KEEP YOUR FOCUS, AND THAT IS WHAT THEY CALL... DISCIPLINE! DECIDE WHAT ROUTE YOU ARE WILLING TO TAKE. THE ROUTE YOU ARE ON NOW IS MUCH EASIER, BELIEVE ME. HAVING DISCIPLINE IS A ROUTE THAT YOU MIGHT NOT BE WILLING TO TAKE! IT'S TOUGH, AND POKER IS NOT MEANT FOR EVERYONE. YOU CAN TAKE THE EASY WAY OUT AND KEEP LOSING A LITTLE AT A TIME LIKE YOU ARE DOING SO RIGHT NOW, OR YOU CAN MAKE THE CHOICE TO CORRECT YOUR BAD HABITS AND BECOME A WINNING PLAYER. IT'S ALL UP TO YOU! NOONE CAN GIVE YOU DISCIPLINE IN POKER, YOU CAN ONLY DO IT FOR YOURSELF. HAVING DISCIPLINE WAS THE ROUTE THAT I CHOSE TO TAKE A LONG TIME AGO, AND NOW I AM PLAYING POKER PROFESSIONALLY FOR OVER TEN YEARS. I LOVE IT, I MAKE A DECENT LIVING, I DO NOT PLAY HIGH LIMIT, I PLAY A LOT OF ON-LINE POKER AS WELL, AND I HAVE ALWAYS KEPT ONE THING WITH ME WHEREVER I PLAYED.... MY DISCIPLINE! REMEMBER: LACK OF DISCIPLINE= NO BANKROLL. GOOD LUCK TO YOU, I HOPE YOU CHOSE THE ROUTE THAT WILL BE THE MOST PROFITABLE ONE! P.S. YOU CAN HAVE DISCIPLINE AND FUN AT THE SAME TIME, TRUST ME! HEY, WHAT'S MORE FUN THEN BOOKING LOTS AND LOTS OF WINS??? TAKE A BREAK FROM POKER RIGHT NOW, THINK ABOUT HOW SERIOUS YOU ARE REALLY TAKING ALL OF THIS AND HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO IMPROVE YOUR GAME. SPEND SOME QUALITY TIME WITH YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS SO POKER DOESN'T BURN YOU OUT. ALL THE BEST... | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, Mark, 4. Apr 2003 12:47 | ||
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| The best advice i can give you is to play very tight. There are a couple of ways to help you do this, some of these may seem a bit silly, but they are working for me. 1.) Put up a big sign next to your computer that says FOLD!. This will help to remind you that "tight is right" and you should be folding alot more than your competition at the lower limits. this may also help you on a subconscious level. 2.) keep notes on players while at the table. write down interesting or "out of the ordinary" things your opponents do. you will start to get a feel as to how they play and you can adjust your stradegies accordingly. 3.)* this is big one* write down the starting hands you play, the position you play them, whether it was for a raise or not, and the outcome of the hand. write down EVERY hand you play for a few session and then review them all. You will very quickly see what hands win and which don't. This will make very clear alot of things about starting hands. 4.) Don't underestimate position. It is of critical importance. If your trying to get back into a winning grove, play tighter than you normally do, but also, don't play anthing lower than A-Qoffsuit in the first 2 positions after the blinds. thats where most people lose money. good luck and i hope this helps mark | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, Risky Business, 4. Apr 2003 13:20 | ||
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| Sounds like you need 2 signs, FOLD and "tight is right" But seriously, I agree. Going through the minutiae of writing down every hand and folding next-to-everything will help you realize (again) that good hands sometime get pounded, whether by loose players or bad community cards. Once you see a few of those hands that you would normally play get beat, easily, for high pots, you'll start to feel better that you didn't play them (a positive expectation) and your memory will change from "play this 8-8" to "let it go in this position". It's just retraining your mind. | ||
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| Re: I'm burned out ... suggestions for when I come back?, NiceFella, 4. Apr 2003 14:07 | ||
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| SoCal, I've come to the decision that poker is a game I play against myself. I believe that any reasonably intelligent, dedicated person can learn the basics of the game. Most of the people on this forum are in agreement about the correct play of 95% of the routine hands. It's really not rocket science, especially limit poker. I have never had a losing session playing poker without making some basic, simple mistakes that I immediately recognized. I can literally feel myself doing the wrong thing at the table and being unable to stop myself. I raise the turn when I should fold. I limp in with TT in late position, and the big blind gets a free ride to steal my pot. I slow play my set and lose to a flush. Over and over. It's obvious to me and the other players. Why do I do it? Yes, I get drawn out on by fools, and I get outplayed by better players. But at the end of the night when I add up my mistakes, it usually would change a losing session to a winning one had I not made those mistakes. Even the pros on television get criticised and punished for slow playing those pocket queens. It's rather sobering. It's frequently quoted that an excellent player clears less than two big bets per hour. A single mistake like raising instead of folding can quickly cost you an hour's profit. A lost pot can cost a whole day's profit. Just limping in to see one or two too many flops an hour can eliminate your profit. Muck that pocket 44 in early position! KTo is not a premium hand! Poker quickly and harshly punishes the smallest of errors. Learning to play good poker is, in my opinion, learning to never make a mistake. That means I must never play tired. Never play hungry. Never play angry. Never play bored. Never play desperate to "get my money back." Not ever. Not once. Two weeks of diligent play can vanish in an hour. Sometimes it means driving an hour to the casino, sitting down and playing 5 hands, realizing I'm not in the mood, and having the discipline to get back up from the table and drive the hour back home before I lose all my bankroll. However much I learn about the game, I know that in the end it comes down to my ability to exercise control over my emotions and actions, ALWAYS. Which for me, just might make poker an unprofitable game no matter how much I learn. NiceFella | ||
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