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Server Time: 8/28/2008 8:14:46 PM PACIFIC |
 Pocket A's ( o boy), john ray, 27. Mar 2003 17:00 | ||
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| I'm button . 4&5 call, i raise and fold the rest. A threesome. Flop is TJK off and cks to me. I bet and get 2 calls . The turn is X cks to me I bet and get 1 call. River is X cks to me , I bet. 1 call and lose to 2 pair TJ ( his starters off suit). I would like opinions on my play but also the other side of it . I believe we both played it decently but I don't think I should have made the river bet. Or, should he not have started the hand . I ask for when I'm in the his situation. The game was loose passive. Thanks All | ||
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| Re: Pocket A's ( o boy), Forrest, 27. Mar 2003 17:23 | ||
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| Maybe I'm not agressive enough, but Sklansky says something like "bet on river when you expect to win when called with a high probability". I check reasonably often on the river in that kind of situation. Also, I think TJ is kind of special as you can pretty much expect nobody will fold it in loose games. Too many players think of it as one of the best starting hands. The guy with TJ might have gotten a raise in there somewhere to get more from you (would you really have thrown away the AA overpair?). I'm sure the real experts here can give you the right answer though in case I'm off base. | ||
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| Re: Pocket A's ( o boy), Andrew Wells, 27. Mar 2003 20:01 | ||
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| JTo is not a bad limping hand if one is prepared to dump it with a difficult board. It generally gets in trouble (particularly out of position) when it flops a pair with some kind of longshot draw in reserve. It is not a good hand to get isolated with, and usually needs multiway action to be profitable. You said the game was loose-passive, so this player was expecting several more callers. I probably would not play it without another caller in front of me from early position despite the overall looseness. Your having raised from the button would tend to allow me to play for a checkraise on the flop with bottom two pair. I'd rather not bet out, get raised and make it three bets since the board could have helped everyone. I'll see how you respond to the checkraise, but continue to play it fast on the turn if a blank falls. As for your pocket aces, there's no problem betting the flop and turn against check/callers. I would probably just check and showdown on the river against tighter players as there aren't too many hands AA can beat that would check/call the whole way which would also pay off on the end. Most likely KQ or K9, even AK is remotely possible. Looser players who will pay off with hands like AJ or QJ may be enough to warrant a bet here. If I was holding the JT, I would have bet into you on the river and called if you raised, given that there was no significant action on the flop or turn. Notice that the player with bottom two on the flop was concerned enough with that board to become weak; perhaps afraid of AQ, two bigger pair or a set. Against that kind of play it is best to just check behind on the end, as you're most often up against queen something that missed the straight draw and also won't call if you bet. | ||
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| Re: Pocket A's ( o boy), stdioh, 28. Mar 2003 07:40 | ||
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| I think that you played it right up until the river. Because you are drawing to broadway, you welcome a queen hitting the board, but since you've got the overpair you want to be putting money in the pot. I would figure that I was up against a king or a straight dead-draw and I would be betting there for sure. That said, you don't want anybody drawing out and hitting the lower straight. Essentially you may be up against an up/down draw who really only has 4 outs...make him pay for his cards. Now on the river, your opponents are still there. If they are on busted draws then they will fold and if they are on kings they will call. Since the river didn't bring a scare card ( I think you mean turn X and river Y or you would have a better 2 pair) then you can safely assume that you have the best of it. 2 pair should have been re-agressing you to knock out drawing hands. Thus a bet on the river is not out of the question. Now here's the catch. If a player has a king, what is his kicker? Probably not an ace or he should be playing stronger - maybe a queen, which is fine. If he has a jack or a ten then he's got the two pair and has you beat. But then there is the possibility that somebody flopped the made straight and was afraid of folding people by betting the flop, wanting somebody's hand to improve. You could be set up for a checkraise on the river. Basically your hand is good, but I don't think it is good enough to bet the river with unless you know your opponents extremely well. And the guy who didn't bet his two pair is an idiot, but that shouldn't affect your decision unless you're playing against him again. | ||
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| Re: Pocket A's ( o boy), shorn, 28. Mar 2003 09:36 | ||
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| on 28. Mar 2003 07:40 stdioh wrote: > I think that you played it right up until the river. Because you are drawing to > broadway, you welcome a queen hitting the board, but since you've got the overpair > you want to be putting money in the pot. I would figure that I was up against a king > or a straight dead-draw and I would be betting there for sure. That said, you don't > want anybody drawing out and hitting the lower straight. Essentially you may be up > against an up/down draw who really only has 4 outs...make him pay for his cards. > > Now on the river, your opponents are still there. If they are on busted draws then > they will fold and if they are on kings they will call. Since the river didn't bring > a scare card ( I think you mean turn X and river Y or you would have a better 2 pair) > then you can safely assume that you have the best of it. 2 pair should have been > re-agressing you to knock out drawing hands. Thus a bet on the river is not out of > the question. > > Now here's the catch. If a player has a king, what is his kicker? Probably not an > ace or he should be playing stronger - maybe a queen, which is fine. If he has a jack > or a ten then he's got the two pair and has you beat. But then there is the > possibility that somebody flopped the made straight and was afraid of folding people > by betting the flop, wanting somebody's hand to improve. You could be set up for a > checkraise on the river. > > Basically your hand is good, but I don't think it is good enough to bet the river > with unless you know your opponents extremely well. And the guy who didn't bet his > two pair is an idiot, but that shouldn't affect your decision unless you're playing > against him again. I think you definitely bet the river here. The board is somewhat coordinated (at least the flop), and likely holdings of your opponents (since they showed no aggression to you) ar KQ, AK, AJ, hell even AT. Since the pot on the end has become somewhat large (8.5 BB's), I think those hands will call a bet for value on your part. OK, it sucks and someone held JTo, but long run, I think betting the river is a +EV play. | ||
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| Re: Pocket A's ( o boy), Snorbolus, 28. Mar 2003 10:24 | ||
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| To bet the river here I would want to have seen both of the remaining opponents making loose river calls previously (calling the river and loosing to top pair ect). I am on my hols right now and have seen loads of that sort of thing the last couple of days. I bet the river almost routinely at the moment. Must be sure to re-adjust when I get back to my regular games. Snorbolus > on 28. Mar 2003 07:40 stdioh wrote:....... > > Basically your hand is good, but I don't think it is good enough to bet the river > > with unless you know your opponents extremely well. ...... >Shorn wrote....... > I think you definitely bet the river here. ....... ..... but long run, I think betting the river is a +EV play. | ||
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