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Server Time: 11/21/2008 2:50:35 AM PACIFIC |
 Two pair on the flop, Schuster, 26. Mar 2003 23:10 | ||
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| I had a pretty bad session tonight and I'm trying to pinpoint where I went wrong. In 2.5 hours I only won 1 pot, but I still think I should have lost much less than I did. I am almost positive there was nothing I could do to make this a winning session, but I *am* positive there are things I could do to have lost less. On a side note, how much would you say you lose on an average night where the cards are just running really cold for you? I think I missed all 5 or 6 of my flush draws, got a set of aces cracked to a flush, and my big slick drew no ace or king four out of five. You'll read about that fifth time below. Anyway, it occured to me that the times I flopped 2 pair, I wasn't really sure of how to play it. I know there's no definate answer, so I'll give the scenarios I had. Also, people were calling preflop with almost anything. The table was very loose passive and pretty fishy. First I held KQ 1 off the button. There were 3 limpers before me, I called, button called, and so did the blinds. We took the flop 6 handed. Flop is K Q 5 rainbow. It's checked around to me. I bet, button raises. I figured he would have raised preflop with QQ, KK, or AK. He *may* have limped in with AQ (I saw a lot of this at this table). I was pretty sure that the only hand that beat mine right now was 55. 2 fold, 2 call, and I call so as not to commit myself too much if he does have 55 (should I have reraised here?). The turn comes another 5. It's checked around to me again. Figuring that he didn't have quads (what are the odds, right?), I bet out again, and again he raises me. It's folded to me. I call the extra bet, which in hindsight, was probably not right play. River is blank, I check, he bets, I call. He shows me Q5 for the boat. My first thought was, who the hell plays Q 5? Like I said, people called with just about anything preflop. The other hand in question, I was 2 off the button. There were 3 callers in front of me and I held AK offsuit. I fired the raise, guy next to me folds, button calls, one of the blinds folds, the other calls, the original limpers call. Again, 6 handed. Flop comes A K 5 rainbow. It's checked around to me. Is this a hand I should slowplay? I was pretty sure that someone would have raised with AA or KK, so again, I was pretty sure I had the best hand, and I fired into the pot. Button calls, one other caller, the rest fold. Turn brings an 8, first to act checks to me, and I fire again. Everyone calls. River is a 2, it's checked to me again, and again I fire away. Button calls, the checker raises me. I figured he could have been playing a hand like A2 or even A8. This table would call with AX preflop. I call the raise, he turns over 3-4 suited for the straight and collects the pot. The last time, I held J5 suited in the big blind. I saw a free flop bring J 7 5 with 2 to a flush draw. The small blind had folded preflop, and there were 3 or 4 hands left to act after me. How should I play a hand like this? Would I play it differently if the flop came without the flush draw? I bet to make the draws pay, and had a couple callers. The turn was an ugly card for me (I don't remember exactly what) but it completed the flush draw and a possible straight draw. I checked, it was bet, I folded. If I recall, someone made the straight or the flush, not sure which, but I was in fact beaten. Looking back, I was only really happy with my play, particularly my fold, on the third hand. Also, it should be noted that the limits were extremely low compared to what most of you folks normally play, $0.50/$1.00. My funds right now are limited and I still have not been playing very long. Thanks in advance for your comments! Lee | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, shorn, 27. Mar 2003 05:59 | ||
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| Lee- I think you played the third hand OK, although with that flop, I may have tried to checkraise if I thought there was a bettor out there. If not, then you must bet to make sure you are charging the draws appropriately. The first hand, I would have 3-bet the flop hoping to isolate the button and also to try and find out where he stood. If he caps it, then you can slow down on the turn and potentially check and fold (when the board paired). Bottom line, the guy hit his four outer and took the pot. On the second hand, it would be foolish to slowplay AK with 6 opponents (unless you were first to act and you were positive the button would bet so that you could checkraise everyone else out). The guy who won the pot had 8-1 on the flop and 6-1 on the turn for an 11-1 shot. You WANT him to make those calls as you make money every time he makes mistakes like that. Again, he hit his four outer and you lost, but that happens. I think you just had a bad run that night, something everyone goes through no matter the limit. Kudos to you for keeping your cool and not tilting off a moot of extra $$. Keep at it and play the way you are and you are on the road to being a long-term winner guaranteed. Steve | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, Tommy Angelo, 27. Mar 2003 07:14 | ||
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| Schuster, "On a side note, how much would you say you lose on an average night where the cards are just running really cold for you?" My average rate of loss when winning no pots is one rack per hour. Tommy | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, stdioh, 27. Mar 2003 07:18 | ||
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| on 27. Mar 2003 07:14 Tommy Angelo wrote: > Schuster, > > "On a side note, how much would you say you lose on an average night where the cards > are just running really cold for you?" > > My average rate of loss when winning no pots is one rack per hour. At my very worst - coldest possible, I lose 10 BB per hour. | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, Nathaniel Brous, 27. Mar 2003 07:35 | ||
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| on 27. Mar 2003 07:18 stdioh wrote: > At my very worst - coldest possible, I lose 10 BB per hour. This figure seems really low. May your streak continue! - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, stdioh, 27. Mar 2003 08:47 | ||
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| on 27. Mar 2003 07:35 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > on 27. Mar 2003 07:18 stdioh wrote: > > At my very worst - coldest possible, I lose 10 BB per hour. > > This figure seems really low. May your streak continue! > - Nathaniel Brous You think so? 10 BB per hour is pretty wretched, IMHO, since I probably only pay blinds 3 times and see 3 flops. | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, STEPHEN ROWE, 27. Mar 2003 09:54 | ||
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| What the heck does IMHO mean? | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, shorn, 27. Mar 2003 10:40 | ||
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| on 27. Mar 2003 09:54 STEPHEN ROWE wrote: > What the heck does IMHO mean? In My Humble Opinion...took me a while to figure it out too. | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, Fox, 27. Mar 2003 13:22 | ||
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| I take cold to mean that you are getting second best hand and getting drawn out on a lot, w/o correct odds to do so. When this happens 10BB doesn't seem that bad. - Fox on 27. Mar 2003 08:47 stdioh wrote: > on 27. Mar 2003 07:35 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > > on 27. Mar 2003 07:18 stdioh wrote: > > > At my very worst - coldest possible, I lose 10 BB per hour. > > > > This figure seems really low. May your streak continue! > > - Nathaniel Brous > > You think so? 10 BB per hour is pretty wretched, IMHO, since I probably only pay blinds 3 times and > see 3 flops. | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, Nathaniel Brous, 27. Mar 2003 20:20 | ||
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| "On a side note, how much would you say you lose on an average night where the cards are just running really cold for you?" My average rate of loss when winning no pots is one rack per hour. Tommy Hey stdioh, Sorry about that. Tommy answered a different question, which threw me off. His answer is more along the lines of running bad (winning no pots). I guess we can agree that when you are running really "cold" you are sitting on the sidelines folding. Your answer makes perfect sense now. (slapping back of hand) I will read more carefully from now on. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, stdioh, 28. Mar 2003 07:43 | ||
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| No problems...with everything there are different degrees of badness and goodness. When I am running bad or running cold I find that I am getting dealt lots of hands that I can limp with, but never getting there...stuff like A5 suited and pocket jacks...hands that are almost always worth paying a bet for in a loose game...even worth raising with the jacks in the right position...but then when the flop comes 6QK and the wrong suit, there's not any use in playing either. I steadilly lose when this sort of thing happens, but if you're talking about an amazing bad beat fest then yeah....you can lose a lot faster. | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, stdioh, 27. Mar 2003 07:18 | ||
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| I think that playing 2 pair on the flop is not dissimilar from playing top pair top kicker. Your hand is likely to be good, but you want the draws out and you want them out damn hell now. You've only got gutshot odds on improving to a tight. So I would agress the flop. Now I wouldn't fold when the scare card comes. I'd say that's a situation where you might make a crying call. The reason is that you still have 4 redraws to tighten up and if you do and your opponent made then you have great implied odds. Also, it is very possible that your opponent did not make a draw and is just betting a scare card. It sounds like the pot was pretty big here. Also, if the turn card was an overcard, then it is very possible that the bettor was on overcards and hit one and now thinks he is good. I'd call the turn there and if a brick hits the river I'd call that too. If another flush or straight card hits the river then it's time to skidaddle. | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, Ezra, 27. Mar 2003 08:35 | ||
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| I realize your bankroll is limited. However, I think that you are going to see more bad beats at the $0.50/$1.00 table than say $3/$6 or higher (which I realize is a big jump and many bad beats occur at 3/6 as well). I think these very low limits attract some players who will play any 2 cards and if the flop hits them even a little they will carry it to the river hoping to make a big score. You can not make it expensive enough in real $ terms to get people to fold and most of the players at these levels have no concept of pot odds. They think with a 3-flush or bottom pair, bad kicker, "hell, it's only a buck to see the turn, maybe it'll help." If you've got a lot of people doing this on a regular basis, the turn and river are bound to help some of them and crack good hands like KK and AA. I commend you for not tilting. Good luck! | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, Mark, 27. Mar 2003 09:14 | ||
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| i can definately agree with Ezra. I play all sorts of online games, 1-2 and 2-4 7-stud(and hi/lo), 2-4 and NL hold'em, 1-2 and 2-4 omaha/8, and 1-2 and 2-4 draw poker, and occassionally take shots at bigger limit games. Last night I was at the .50-1.00 and lower hold'em tables (to play with a friend). Many opponents would draw without odds and play any 2 cards till the turn. It wasn't uncommon to see someone draw to 1 overcard till the river. To beat those games you have to be VERY tight and VERY aggressive. When you move up in limits (even just a small move from .50-1.00) your opponents will "fall into line" much more. This means your solid hands will hold up more because less opponents will be on long shot draws. There is a term for what happens at the low (micro)-limit tables, i think it is "Implicit Collusion". When a group of players play really bad at the same time, their bad play can actually turn into correct game theory, because the implied pot odds will be there for their long shot draws. If you can afford to, you may want to try no limit hold'em with small blinds. If you are tight (you'll have to be a bit more aggressive) you may really like it. People don't draw as much, and when they do you can really punish them. Tight aggressive play is really rewarded. My poker really improved when i made the jump from limit hold'em to no limit. mark | ||
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| Re: Two pair on the flop, Schuster, 27. Mar 2003 22:17 | ||
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| Thanks for the advice all. I sat at the 1/2 table for a few hours today and I did notice a big difference in the abilities of the other players. I do like the game better though, thanks for the suggestion. It wasn't a winning session, but I made a few plays that I now know I should not have made. I think had I played them differently, the extra bets gained and saved would have put me at near even, probably on the plus side a bit. Anyway, thanks again! Lee | ||
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