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Server Time: 11/21/2008 12:08:50 AM PACIFIC |
 to aggressive?, Snorbolus, 26. Mar 2003 20:30 | ||
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| After the turn this was all pretty standard stuff but I wonder what others think of my play on the flop. Was my aggression justified? This hand was at a pretty fishy, loose passive Hold'em table. Usually aggression would fold out some players (if many were in the pot), but I do not believe that bluffing, or marginal semi-bluffing would ever be +EV with this set of opponents. I held pocket nines UTG+2 fold, call, I called, 5 more calles including both blinds. 7 players Pot: 7sb Notes: I called here because I didn't expect to be able to limit the pot much by raising. Also I wasn't getting much info from opponents calling raises (as far as I could tell most were as likely to call with Q4o as they were with JJ, for instance). I was thinking set or check fold. Flop: 7h 6s 3d Check, check, bet, I raise, folded to big blind who calls 2. UTG+1 calls 3 players Pot: 7+6= 13sb Notes: I decided to raise here because I think that UTG+1 would have bet this flop with as little as over cards, and I thought that an immediate raise to an early (ish) bet might get some respect. I was planning to fold to any re-raise. If anyone other than the original bettor called I intended to look for an excuse to fold the turn. I almost certainly would have check folded an overcard to my pair on the turn. Turn: 9s Check, check, I bet. Both call 3 players Pot: 13+6=19sb Notes: Cool, made a set. Play fast all the way. River: 2c Check, check, I bet. Both call, I win. Thanks for any comments. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: to aggressive?, Schuster, 26. Mar 2003 21:26 | ||
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| I'm a bit newer to the game, but here's my take. Personally I think the play was the one to make. If the bettor in front of you had a higher pair in the pocket, the best you could put him on was TT or maybe JJ. Depends on if he would raise with a hand like that before the flop. You'd have to figure a raise would come from QQ or better. He may have had something like 78, 89, and such. If the reraise came, you could get out and not commit yourself on later betting rounds. If not, you're facing overcards, and you made it more expensive for him to draw them. Anyone calling after you is getting 5 to 1 on a call. The possibility for you to have flopped a set, two pair, or something like that isn't enough to call with just overcards. Of course, he may just have called you with 3-4. I got my set of aces cracked by a guy who flipped over 34 offsuit today, but thats another story. You said it's a fishy table, who knows what they might be calling with. In the end, if you got reraised, you lost one small bet. If you drove out hands holding overcards and one fell on the turn, your hand might hold up, and since you would be last to act, you might be in the position to get a cheap showdown. Of course, you could just flop a set, and take it all the way =). Well played. Lee | ||
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| Re: to aggressive?, shorn, 27. Mar 2003 05:41 | ||
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| looks sound to me. You charged straight draws the most to continue and you likely folded out overcards if they were there. When the 9 came on the turn (which probably looked harmless to everyone but you), you kept firing which is good for more than 1 reason: you probably have the best of it and you don't dare give a lone 8 a free draw at the straight. You also get the added benefit of having people who hold a 7 or even 76 think you are still pushing overcards which you would have raised with on the flop as well (or folded). Well played. I would have played it the same way. | ||
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| Re: to aggressive?, Mark, 27. Mar 2003 09:22 | ||
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| I think you played it perfect. Your flop raise was the right play. If you get re-raised you can slow down and see what the turn brings. I think that too many lower-limit hold'em players(i'm one of them) call the flop too often when they should raise. By raising you have a better idea of where you stand for 1/2 a bet, and you take control of the hand. Also, you punish any draws and may get overcards to fold. mark | ||
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| Re: to aggressive?, Paul Stine, 27. Mar 2003 13:14 | ||
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| on 26. Mar 2003 20:30 Snorbolus wrote: > After the turn this was all pretty standard stuff but I wonder what others think of my play > on the flop. Was my aggression justified? This hand was at a pretty fishy, loose passive > Hold'em table. Usually aggression would fold out some players (if many were in the pot), > but I do not believe that bluffing, or marginal semi-bluffing would ever be +EV with this > set of opponents. > > I held pocket nines UTG+2 > fold, call, I called, 5 more calles including both blinds. > 7 players > Pot: 7sb > > Notes: I called here because I didn't expect to be able to limit the pot much by raising. > Also I wasn't getting much info from opponents calling raises (as far as I could tell most > were as likely to call with Q4o as they were with JJ, for instance). I was thinking set or > check fold. > (This is not a comment on your play as much as a kind of thinking in text.) If one doesn't expect anyone to fold for a raise, but has a reasonable (better than average) hand, should one raise in order to leverage the amount of money in the pot (by the number of opponents)? This would increase ones variance, a bit, and effectively would make the game some sort of, say, 10-5-10-10 game instead of 5-5-10-10. However, since, by definition, you have a stronger than average hand you are pot building when you have the better of it, if not the best of it. If the flop comes under your pair, your subsequent bet for value also has the air of an even larger holding. > Flop: 7h 6s 3d > > Check, check, bet, I raise, folded to big blind who calls 2. UTG+1 calls > Good raise. If the flop hit anyone, it probably only hit them once (except for 54 or 76) and they will need another hit to beat you. It also pressures TT and JJ to consider whether thier hand is any good (see the last sentence in the above paragraph.) I'm not wild about the BB call, but at least nobody re-raised. > 3 players > Pot: 7+6= 13sb > Notes: I decided to raise here because I think that UTG+1 would have bet this flop with > as little as over cards, and I thought that an immediate raise to an early (ish) bet might get > some respect. I was planning to fold to any re-raise. If anyone other than the original > bettor called I intended to look for an excuse to fold the turn. I almost certainly would > have check folded an overcard to my pair on the turn. > > Turn: 9s > Ding! This is where your agressive play pays you off, the hand that was previously good has now improved even more. The 9, while not appearing to, improves your hand and so you have more concealed strength than your opponents can give you credit for. > Check, check, I bet. Both call > > 3 players > Pot: 13+6=19sb > Notes: Cool, made a set. Play fast all the way. > > River: 2c > > Check, check, I bet. Both call, I win. > Overcalls, you gotta love 'em. Most poor players overcall without any clue as to why they are doing it. A wild-haired theorist once advised that in order to overcall you must have a much stronger hand than you needed to make the first call. The reason? You are calling (not betting, mind you, calling) to beat at least two players, not just the bettor. One thing that a lot of poor players seem to overlook is that in order to claim the pot you have to beat *all* the other players, not *just one* of the other players. > Thanks for any comments. > > Snorbolus With the exception of one action (the call on the flop instead of a raise) you played raise or fold poker. Raise or fold poker is aggressive, strong poker and the type of poker that wins the money. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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