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Understanding your own tells., Hatchet Harry, 25. Mar 2003 16:37
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With so much litreture to go through, and 99% of my play being online, I've not managed to get around to reading the 'Book of Tells as yet' - I am planning to in the near future.
So with that in mind, is there any simple tips to reading you own tells.
I was prompted to post this as the other night, I was told that I had a blatent online tell - (May have been betting pattern or speed of bet??) but i'm not sure. This player was giving me a roasting, so i had no reason to disbeleive him and in the end I admited defeat and left the game.
I've since tried real hard to analyse my own game for patterns, but It gets lost in my concentration on other things.

Any simple tips out there?

Regards
HH
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Re: Understanding your own tells., Paul Stine, 25. Mar 2003 21:39
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on 25. Mar 2003 16:37 Hatchet Harry wrote:
> With so much literature to go through, and 99% of my play being online, I've not
> managed to get around to reading the 'Book of Tells as yet' - I am planning to
> in the near future.
> So with that in mind, is there any simple tips to reading you own tells.
> I was prompted to post this as the other night, I was told that I had a blatent
> online tell - (May have been betting pattern or speed of bet??) but i'm not
> sure. This player was giving me a roasting, so i had no reason to disbeleive him
> and in the end I admited defeat and left the game.
> I've since tried real hard to analyse my own game for patterns, but It gets
> lost in my concentration on other things.
>
> Any simple tips out there?
>
> Regards
> HH

The first answer is short and sweet but, unfortunately, not simple: Train for it; practice what you are doing.

What?
Think about this: Try and make every action look like the previous one. When you bet make it look the same as the last time you bet. If you raise, make it look the same as the last time you raised. Even when you fold, make it look like your previous fold. Don't let the way you perform your action betray your hand or intention.

How?
What you are looking for here is repetitive motion training. Think for a minute about what you are doing; break down your action into minute detail, write a script. For example, everytime you get dealt cards handle them in the same way. Take the time to write your actions (or what you want your actions to be) down, this forms your script. Then follow the script with no ad-libbing. For example, here is an hand checking script for live play:

1.) gather/stack/square cards
2.) raise corner of cards
3.) slightly spread cards to see them
4.) read your cards for a count of three, 1 ... 2 ... 3. Read them, don't just stare at them. Think about the cards you have and memorize them, rank and suit. You don't want to look at them again unless you have to face them up at the showdown. (The three count does a couple things: it gives you time to memorize your cards, it draws your opponents attention, and when they are thinking about you they aren't thinking about thier game, and it keeps your action at the same tempo ... everytime.)
5.) lower the corner of your cards
6.) Act
a.) if you are going to fold:
i.) pass your cards toward the dealer.
ii.) forget what cards you had, they are no longer important to this hand.
b.) if you are going to call, bet or raise:
i.) protect you hand (however you choose to do it, just do it every time.)
ii.) announce your intention
iii.) execute your calling/betting/raising script. (What? No calling/betting/raising script? Well, write one.)

Note that this script doesn't mention looking left (that should be part of your pre-hand checking script and, yeah, you need one of those, too), sighing, poker-clacking, cursing, re-checking the previous action, etc. It also isn't as detailed as it might be.

If your action is consistant to the point of being robotic there is no way your action can betray your holding. Write it down! Put pencil to paper, just thinking about this won't do.

You can do the same thing with your on-line playing action.

Here is what I think is a good on-line tell: With one player taking a long time to act, another player (already acted or waiting to act) exhibts what I call the Impatience Tell. The impatient player then types some chat telling the slow player to hurry up and act, or maybe types "ZZZZZZZZZZ." Why is this player so impatient? If he was going to fold, he could click the fold button and be done with it. So, he must have a holding that warrants his attention. And what warrants his attention more than a big hand? Ta-da! you now have some information about this player's hand that may affect your action.

Ever gotten antsy about someone dragging his feet when you have a big hand? I have!

For live play, aside from using your scripts, one of the best things you can do is find a poker study partner. He watches you and your play (hopefully while not involved in the game so he isn't distracted) and in turn you spend some time watching him and his play. Agree to observe each other for 2 hours on four occasions and then get together and critique each other's play. This should be constructive critisism, of course.

One of the great things about this is when you can identify a tendancy or tell in your own game, you can identify it in someone else's game and exploit it. Man, that is like getting paid doubletime!

One more note: If you think another player has identified a tell you have, why play with that player until you can bust your own tell? Strategic withdrawl is not defeat!

Hope this helps.

Paul Stine
College Station, TX

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Re: Understanding your own tells., Ashley Adams, 26. Mar 2003 05:30
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Paul,
This is the most thorough and useful treatment of this subject I have ever seen. Thank you for it. A real contribution to this forum, to poker, and (selfishly) to ME!. Thanks!!

Ashley Adams

on 25. Mar 2003 21:39 Paul Stine wrote:
> on 25. Mar 2003 16:37 Hatchet Harry wrote:
> > With so much literature to go through, and 99% of my play being online, I've not
>
> > managed to get around to reading the 'Book of Tells as yet' - I am planning to
> > in the near future.
> > So with that in mind, is there any simple tips to reading you own tells.
> > I was prompted to post this as the other night, I was told that I had a blatent
> > online tell - (May have been betting pattern or speed of bet??) but i'm not
> > sure. This player was giving me a roasting, so i had no reason to disbeleive him
>
> > and in the end I admited defeat and left the game.
> > I've since tried real hard to analyse my own game for patterns, but It gets
> > lost in my concentration on other things.
> >
> > Any simple tips out there?
> >
> > Regards
> > HH
>
> The first answer is short and sweet but, unfortunately, not simple: Train for it;
> practice what you are doing.
>
> What?
> Think about this: Try and make every action look like the previous one. When you bet
> make it look the same as the last time you bet. If you raise, make it look the same
> as the last time you raised. Even when you fold, make it look like your previous
> fold. Don't let the way you perform your action betray your hand or intention.
>
> How?
> What you are looking for here is repetitive motion training. Think for a minute
> about what you are doing; break down your action into minute detail, write a script.
> For example, everytime you get dealt cards handle them in the same way. Take the time
> to write your actions (or what you want your actions to be) down, this forms your
> script. Then follow the script with no ad-libbing. For example, here is an hand
> checking script for live play:
>
> 1.) gather/stack/square cards
> 2.) raise corner of cards
> 3.) slightly spread cards to see them
> 4.) read your cards for a count of three, 1 ... 2 ... 3. Read them, don't just stare
> at them. Think about the cards you have and memorize them, rank and suit. You don't
> want to look at them again unless you have to face them up at the showdown. (The
> three count does a couple things: it gives you time to memorize your cards, it draws
> your opponents attention, and when they are thinking about you they aren't thinking
> about thier game, and it keeps your action at the same tempo ... everytime.)
> 5.) lower the corner of your cards
> 6.) Act
> a.) if you are going to fold:
> i.) pass your cards toward the dealer.
> ii.) forget what cards you had, they are no longer important to this hand.
> b.) if you are going to call, bet or raise:
> i.) protect you hand (however you choose to do it, just do it every time.)
> ii.) announce your intention
> iii.) execute your calling/betting/raising script. (What? No
> calling/betting/raising script? Well, write one.)
>
> Note that this script doesn't mention looking left (that should be part of your
> pre-hand checking script and, yeah, you need one of those, too), sighing,
> poker-clacking, cursing, re-checking the previous action, etc. It also isn't as
> detailed as it might be.
>
> If your action is consistant to the point of being robotic there is no way your
> action can betray your holding. Write it down! Put pencil to paper, just thinking
> about this won't do.
>
> You can do the same thing with your on-line playing action.
>
> Here is what I think is a good on-line tell: With one player taking a long time to
> act, another player (already acted or waiting to act) exhibts what I call the
> Impatience Tell. The impatient player then types some chat telling the slow player to
> hurry up and act, or maybe types "ZZZZZZZZZZ." Why is this player so impatient? If he
> was going to fold, he could click the fold button and be done with it. So, he must
> have a holding that warrants his attention. And what warrants his attention more than
> a big hand? Ta-da! you now have some information about this player's hand that may
> affect your action.
>
> Ever gotten antsy about someone dragging his feet when you have a big hand? I have!
>
>
> For live play, aside from using your scripts, one of the best things you can do is
> find a poker study partner. He watches you and your play (hopefully while not
> involved in the game so he isn't distracted) and in turn you spend some time watching
> him and his play. Agree to observe each other for 2 hours on four occasions and then
> get together and critique each other's play. This should be constructive critisism,
> of course.
>
> One of the great things about this is when you can identify a tendancy or tell in
> your own game, you can identify it in someone else's game and exploit it. Man, that
> is like getting paid doubletime!
>
> One more note: If you think another player has identified a tell you have, why play
> with that player until you can bust your own tell? Strategic withdrawl is not
> defeat!
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Paul Stine
> College Station, TX
>
>
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Re: Understanding your own tells., shorn, 26. Mar 2003 05:54
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on 26. Mar 2003 05:30 Ashley Adams wrote:
> Paul,
> This is the most thorough and useful treatment of this subject I have ever seen.
> Thank you for it. A real contribution to this forum, to poker, and (selfishly) to ME!.
> Thanks!!
>
Paul-

I agree with Asley. I will never type zzzzzzz in the on-line screen again you dog! (unless I am folding as a counter-tell...he he he)

Steve
> Ashley Adams
>
> on 25. Mar 2003 21:39 Paul Stine wrote:
> > on 25. Mar 2003 16:37 Hatchet Harry wrote:
> > > With so much literature to go through, and 99% of my play being online, I've not
> >
> > > managed to get around to reading the 'Book of Tells as yet' - I am planning to
> > > in the near future.
> > > So with that in mind, is there any simple tips to reading you own tells.
> > > I was prompted to post this as the other night, I was told that I had a blatent
> > > online tell - (May have been betting pattern or speed of bet??) but i'm not
> > > sure. This player was giving me a roasting, so i had no reason to disbeleive him
> >
> > > and in the end I admited defeat and left the game.
> > > I've since tried real hard to analyse my own game for patterns, but It gets
> > > lost in my concentration on other things.
> > >
> > > Any simple tips out there?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > HH
> >
> > The first answer is short and sweet but, unfortunately, not simple: Train for it;
> > practice what you are doing.
> >
> > What?
> > Think about this: Try and make every action look like the previous one. When you bet
> > make it look the same as the last time you bet. If you raise, make it look the same
> > as the last time you raised. Even when you fold, make it look like your previous
> > fold. Don't let the way you perform your action betray your hand or intention.
> >
> > How?
> > What you are looking for here is repetitive motion training. Think for a minute
> > about what you are doing; break down your action into minute detail, write a script.
> > For example, everytime you get dealt cards handle them in the same way. Take the time
>
> > to write your actions (or what you want your actions to be) down, this forms your
> > script. Then follow the script with no ad-libbing. For example, here is an hand
> > checking script for live play:
> >
> > 1.) gather/stack/square cards
> > 2.) raise corner of cards
> > 3.) slightly spread cards to see them
> > 4.) read your cards for a count of three, 1 ... 2 ... 3. Read them, don't just stare
> > at them. Think about the cards you have and memorize them, rank and suit. You don't
> > want to look at them again unless you have to face them up at the showdown. (The
> > three count does a couple things: it gives you time to memorize your cards, it draws
> > your opponents attention, and when they are thinking about you they aren't thinking
> > about thier game, and it keeps your action at the same tempo ... everytime.)
> > 5.) lower the corner of your cards
> > 6.) Act
> > a.) if you are going to fold:
> > i.) pass your cards toward the dealer.
> > ii.) forget what cards you had, they are no longer important to this hand.
> > b.) if you are going to call, bet or raise:
> > i.) protect you hand (however you choose to do it, just do it every time.)
> > ii.) announce your intention
> > iii.) execute your calling/betting/raising script. (What? No
> > calling/betting/raising script? Well, write one.)
> >
> > Note that this script doesn't mention looking left (that should be part of your
> > pre-hand checking script and, yeah, you need one of those, too), sighing,
> > poker-clacking, cursing, re-checking the previous action, etc. It also isn't as
> > detailed as it might be.
> >
> > If your action is consistant to the point of being robotic there is no way your
> > action can betray your holding. Write it down! Put pencil to paper, just thinking
> > about this won't do.
> >
> > You can do the same thing with your on-line playing action.
> >
> > Here is what I think is a good on-line tell: With one player taking a long time to
> > act, another player (already acted or waiting to act) exhibts what I call the
> > Impatience Tell. The impatient player then types some chat telling the slow player to
>
> > hurry up and act, or maybe types "ZZZZZZZZZZ." Why is this player so impatient? If he
>
> > was going to fold, he could click the fold button and be done with it. So, he must
> > have a holding that warrants his attention. And what warrants his attention more than
>
> > a big hand? Ta-da! you now have some information about this player's hand that may
> > affect your action.
> >
> > Ever gotten antsy about someone dragging his feet when you have a big hand? I have!
> >
> >
> > For live play, aside from using your scripts, one of the best things you can do is
> > find a poker study partner. He watches you and your play (hopefully while not
> > involved in the game so he isn't distracted) and in turn you spend some time watching
>
> > him and his play. Agree to observe each other for 2 hours on four occasions and then
> > get together and critique each other's play. This should be constructive critisism,
> > of course.
> >
> > One of the great things about this is when you can identify a tendancy or tell in
> > your own game, you can identify it in someone else's game and exploit it. Man, that
> > is like getting paid doubletime!
> >
> > One more note: If you think another player has identified a tell you have, why play
> > with that player until you can bust your own tell? Strategic withdrawl is not
> > defeat!
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Paul Stine
> > College Station, TX
> >
> >
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Re: Understanding your own tells., stdioh, 26. Mar 2003 08:04
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Thanks Paul. I agree with the others here - that was a great post.

One little thing though...when you say, "forget about your cards" after folding, that they are now useless, I disagree. When you fold the Ad and all of a sudden the board comes four diamonds, you should not be thinking, "Oh man! I just threw away the nuts!" but you should be thinking, "Now I'm going to watch the betting action carefully because I want to see who will bet out without having the nuts, etc." Knowing what cards are not in the pack can mean a lot in terms of understanding your opponents.

Now Harry, as per your original email, if you want a simple answer to not giving off tells, the easiest answer is don't act. There are two main tells in the world of poker - shakes and acts. I newbie with big cards will have shakey hands when he is putting his bet it - this is hard to fake convincingly. If you catch yourself shaking then you should do something with respect to your mental state in order to stop this behaviour because an astute player will pick up on it every time.

The easier thing to remedy is acting. The temptation is that you're going to fool your opponents by the way you act. Sometimes this can work really well. You pull a shaking head, sigh, may as well bet against a giant idiot to induce a call. Then you pull a shaking head, sigh, may as well bet against a solid player to induce a fold. In general though, don't act. Don't make an attempt to look strong or weak when you're betting honest or when you're bluffing. Just try to be neutral.

Lastly comes triggering of the calling response. Many players are worried about triggering a calling response in their opponent by doing something to give away that they are bluffing so a number will sit stone still when they throw out a bluff and stare at their opponent. Concentrate on your script, as Paul calls it, and do whatever you would normally do. An astute opponent will realize that you are afraid to blink and reraise you on a rebluff. Along with this comes, "Mr. Hooper Watches TV." The cardroom I play in has a regular who looks like Mr. Hooper from Sesame Street. Whenever he is on a monster hand, he seems so uninterested in the game that he starts watching the TV in the corner - he does this consistently. Actually the guy is the biggest tell factory I know - I've laid down top 2 pair on the river with a giant pot to his "oh well may as well bet" before because my reads of him are 100%. Anyhow, don't try to look too bored or uninterested when you are winning.

One thing that helps in all regards, I find, is splitting my mind. My inner mind is thinking about the cards that I am holding while my outer mind is thinking about a stone cold bluff. My inner mind decides what I'm going to do at a given moment and then lets my outer mind tell my body to bet. Basically, any time I call or raise, my outer mind is telling me that I don't actually have a hand. As a result, my actions come out, in theory, the same every time. When I have a monster I bet the same as when I have nothing. Of course convincingly lying to yourself is hard to do, but if you can pull it off then you don't have to concentrate on the minute little details like an eyebrow twitching or a glassy look in your eyes - you just have to do the one thing.

I hope my input helps.
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Re: Understanding your own tells., Paul Stine, 26. Mar 2003 09:49
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on 26. Mar 2003 08:04 stdioh wrote:
> Thanks Paul. I agree with the others here - that was a great post.
>
> One little thing though...when you say, "forget about your cards" after folding, that
> they are now useless, I disagree. When you fold the Ad and all of a sudden the board comes
> four diamonds, you should not be thinking, "Oh man! I just threw away the nuts!" but you
> should be thinking, "Now I'm going to watch the betting action carefully because I want to
> see who will bet out without having the nuts, etc." Knowing what cards are not in the pack
> can mean a lot in terms of understanding your opponents.
>

Good point. When I said 'forget about your cards' I meant it in the terms of thinking, "D'oh! My 72o would have flopped a house!" Also, this is an aspect of giving information to other players still involved in the hand; something you should look for, but not do.

> Now Harry, as per your original email, if you want a simple answer to not giving off
> tells, the easiest answer is don't act.

I think "don't perform" is probably a more accurate commendation.

>There are two main tells in the world of poker -
> shakes and acts. A newbie with big cards will have shakey hands when he is putting his bet
> it - this is hard to fake convincingly.

Shaking might also happen to an experienced player who is playing for the first time at a new, higher limit (which makes him a newbie at the higher limit) or playing in a game above his squirm level, but this advice is right on target. Temper a shaking tell, like you should temper any tell, with other observations. For example, the fact is that some players shake all the time; some for purely physical reasons (neuro-motor problems or disease) and some for psychological (stress).

>If you catch yourself shaking then you should do
> something with respect to your mental state in order to stop this behaviour because an
> astute player will pick up on it every time.

Sometimes, especially if a player is new to the game, the only way to cure the betting shakes is to accumlate experience at betting, that is practice.

Thanks,
Paul Stine
College Station, TX
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Re: Understanding your own tells., Easy E, 26. Mar 2003 10:13
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". My inner mind is thinking about the cards that I am holding while my outer mind is thinking about a stone cold bluff. My inner mind decides what I'm going to do at a given moment and then lets my outer mind tell my body to bet. Basically, any time I call or raise, my outer mind is telling me that I don't actually have a hand. ....Of course convincingly lying to yourself is hard to do"
You have to overcome the rake AND your obviously-high theraphy bills? DAMN, you must be a good player, Sybil!!!

;)
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Re: Understanding your own tells., stdioh, 26. Mar 2003 10:40
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on 26. Mar 2003 10:13 Easy E wrote:
> ". My inner mind is thinking about the cards that I am holding while my outer mind is thinking
> about a stone cold bluff. My inner mind decides what I'm going to do at a given moment and then
> lets my outer mind tell my body to bet. Basically, any time I call or raise, my outer mind is
> telling me that I don't actually have a hand. ....Of course convincingly lying to yourself is
> hard to do"
> You have to overcome the rake AND your obviously-high theraphy bills? DAMN, you must be a
> good player, Sybil!!!
>
> ;)

Heheh...all I can think to do is loosely quite Speed. "Poor people are crazy, Jack. I'm eccentric."
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Re: Understanding your own tells., timmer, 26. Mar 2003 13:10
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Id like to add one thing .... Ok two things:

Home game and video tape.

Start a home game and position a camcorder somewhere in the bushes. train it on your ( or your brothers ;-) seat . play back at your leasure. It is aMAAAzine what you can discover watching yourself in the third person.

Kind of sneekie but it works.

timmer

on 25. Mar 2003 21:39 Paul Stine wrote:

> For live play, aside from using your scripts, one of the best things you can do is
> find a poker study partner. He watches you and your play (hopefully while not
> involved in the game so he isn't distracted) and in turn you spend some time watching
> him and his play. Agree to observe each other for 2 hours on four occasions and then
> get together and critique each other's play. This should be constructive critisism,
> of course.
>
> One of the great things about this is when you can identify a tendancy or tell in
> your own game, you can identify it in someone else's game and exploit it. Man, that
> is like getting paid doubletime!
>
> One more note: If you think another player has identified a tell you have, why play
> with that player until you can bust your own tell? Strategic withdrawl is not
> defeat!
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Paul Stine
> College Station, TX
>
>
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Re: Understanding your own tells., Hatchet Harry, 26. Mar 2003 16:14
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I'd love to - unfortunately Poker over hear is a bit like cricket over there. Now if it were bridge, well i'd have no trouble rustlin up a few boy's from the yacht club. What - Tally ho!

hehe unfortunately casino's is about the only place to find fella players, and there's not too many of em want to help you get better -)

But I do agree it would be nice.

Cheers
H
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Re: Understanding your own tells., stdioh, 27. Mar 2003 08:52
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on 26. Mar 2003 16:14 Hatchet Harry wrote:
> I'd love to - unfortunately Poker over hear is a bit like cricket over there. Now if it were
> bridge, well i'd have no trouble rustlin up a few boy's from the yacht club. What - Tally ho!
>
> hehe unfortunately casino's is about the only place to find fella players, and there's not too
> many of em want to help you get better -)
>
> But I do agree it would be nice.
>
> Cheers
> H

Reason #85,726 why it is great to live in Canada: We have poker, rugy, cricket, football, and baseball.
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Re: Understanding your own tells., Hatchet Harry, 26. Mar 2003 10:34
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Paul / Stdioh

Thanks alot, your insights are extremely helpful, and also relatively easy to adopt ' with some discipline'.
I will definately be adopting a more 'repetitive nature' in my game in future, which when unconciously mastered will allow me more time to concentrate on my betting patterns in an particular situation.
I also had a giggle at the reference to the shakes. I've played about 5 B&M tournies and I can remember getting bullets for the first time, I was shaking so bad when raking the chips, the whole table had a laugh at my expense (which i joined in of course!!)

Many Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Best Regards
HH
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