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Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:27:24 AM PACIFIC |
 J10 suited in BB with heavy action, TOM WAGGONER, 25. Mar 2003 13:01 | ||
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| This was a loose aggressive 10-20-30 on the end HE game, I was in the BB with J10h, four players limped, and the button raised, he was a super aggressor, I called, and the first limper re-hits it, everyone too the button calls, and he caps it, everyone calls. The flop was J63 rainbow. I considered trying for a checkraise, but chose to bet out. The first limper raised it, and the second one cold called, and the other two folded, and the button 3 bets, and everyone calls. The turn was an offsuit 10 completing rainbow. I checked, it was checked too the button who bet, and I raised, both limpers cold call again and the button 3bets. My first thought was to cap it, but I didn't think that it would move either of the limpers, because I thought that the ten put them on draws, and I also thought there was a good chance that the button had a set, so I just called and the two limpers called. The river was about as good a card as I could expect a 4. I checked, the two limpers checked, and the button thought for a moment and checked, and right then, I knew I had the goods, and that I misplayed the hand and missed a bet on the river. My Jacks and Tens were good and I never saw any other hands. In the end, I figured the button was playing a big pair real hard, and the first limper maybe was on AK, and the other possibly KQ or AJ. Any thoughts? | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, shorn, 25. Mar 2003 13:21 | ||
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| on 25. Mar 2003 13:01 TOM WAGGONER wrote: > This was a loose aggressive 10-20-30 on the end HE game, I was in the BB with > J10h, four players limped, and the button raised, he was a super aggressor, I > called, and the first limper re-hits it, everyone too the button calls, and he > caps it, everyone calls. The flop was J63 rainbow. I considered trying for a > checkraise, but chose to bet out. The first limper raised it, and the second one > cold called, and the other two folded, and the button 3 bets, and everyone > calls. The turn was an offsuit 10 completing rainbow. I checked, it was checked > too the button who bet, and I raised, both limpers cold call again and the > button 3bets. My first thought was to cap it, but I didn't think that it would > move either of the limpers, because I thought that the ten put them on draws, > and I also thought there was a good chance that the button had a set, so I just > called and the two limpers called. The river was about as good a card as I could > expect a 4. I checked, the two limpers checked, and the button thought for a > moment and checked, and right then, I knew I had the goods, and that I misplayed > the hand and missed a bet on the river. My Jacks and Tens were good and I never > saw any other hands. In the end, I figured the button was playing a big pair > real hard, and the first limper maybe was on AK, and the other possibly KQ or > AJ. Any thoughts? I think you have analyzed it perfectly. The only thing you missed was a bet on the river; however, considering the button's actions, you could reasonably assume that he might bet the river if you showed weakness as he put in the last raise on the turn. I think the button had AA (or more likely KK and was trying to make lone Aces pay a huge price) and of the others, one definitely had KQ. AJ is hard to assume because one of the other limpers had to know they were beat when you checkraised the turn and likely would have mucked it (I would have). Anyway, looks like a great board for JTs and you only missed one bet (assuming that the two limpers fold the river and the button calls). | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, SendMoney, 25. Mar 2003 13:22 | ||
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| Based on all the action you'd have to put him on a pocket pair over the board, presumably QQ KK or AA - while he had you beat on the flop your 10 beat him on the turn, at that point he might have figured you for 10-10 or JJ and didn't want to get check-raised. Since there was no flush draw and a relatively weak straight draw I doubt he has playing the free card angle, if anything he might have had A-J suited and was betting the top pair top kicker angle. | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, stdioh, 26. Mar 2003 08:17 | ||
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| I'm going to dissent from the other opinions voiced here and say that I don't think you played the hand well. First, TJ against that many players is almost guaranteed to be no good unimproved, so really you're on a drawing hand on the flop, not a made hand. I think betting out into this field is terrible. You have huge pot odds right now, so you can call with this hand and hope that there is no set out there, but depending on the players and the action, a check-fold may even be in order. But you're playing a maniac and want to capitalize on your hand, so I think a call is ok here...but not a bet out OR a checkraise. You are almost certain at this point not to have the best of it and it is DEAD CERTAIN that somebody else is going to bet anyway. Now when you hit your 6-outer on the turn to improve to top 2 pair, you've probably got the best of it, but there is still an argument for folding to ridiculous action. I would say that I would want to bet out, but only call if another player raised or that I would go for a checkraise in hopes of scaring out at least one drawing player...he's got pot odds at this point for just about any two cards, but if he thinks he's drawing dead he might leave a little dead money behind. Now, on the river, you are still holding top two pair and that is great. If you bet for value you are certain to get called by anybody with pretty much any piece of it, but you are liable to get raised by anybody with a better hand than yours. Nobody with a worse hand than yours will raise you and few hands worse than yours will call...only overpairs really. I think checking the river is appropriate here. | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, shorn, 26. Mar 2003 08:25 | ||
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| I guess I can agree that leading on the flop might not be the best plat, but I have to disagree and say that checkraising the turn is a must. The only hand that you can't beat is JJ, and you must try to get AA, KK, QQ, AJ and KQ to either fold or pay the maximum price by calling two bets cold. Checking and calling (IMHO) is a terrible play and folding to any action (again, IMHO) is out of the question. Once the river comes, yes you are still beaten by JJ, but I think it is still good to value bet. | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, shorn, 26. Mar 2003 08:35 | ||
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| on 26. Mar 2003 08:25 shorn wrote: > I guess I can agree that leading on the flop might not be the best plat, but I have to > disagree and say that checkraising the turn is a must. The only hand that you can't beat > is JJ, and you must try to get AA, KK, QQ, AJ and KQ to either fold or pay the maximum > price by calling two bets cold. Checking and calling (IMHO) is a terrible play and > folding to any action (again, IMHO) is out of the question. Once the river comes, yes you > are still beaten by JJ, but I think it is still good to value bet. I should re-phrase...the only likely hand out that you can't beat is JJ (as it is unlikely that 66, 33, or TT are out based on previos action). | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, stdioh, 26. Mar 2003 08:47 | ||
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| > I should re-phrase...the only likely hand out that you can't beat is JJ (as it is unlikely > that 66, 33, or TT are out based on previos action). I would say that it is entirely plausible that 66 or 33 are out there. You had enough limpers preflop that somebody limping with 66 is going to hang onto it for the flop in hopes of hitting a set...and if they hit the set then they will be playing it. You also have to realize here that even if you are not beat, draws against you add up. You can have the best hand now, but have a slim chance of winning if there are enough cards to improve your opponents. IMO, your hand isn't just quite good enough to play balls-out. | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, shorn, 26. Mar 2003 08:54 | ||
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| on 26. Mar 2003 08:47 stdioh wrote: > > I should re-phrase...the only likely hand out that you can't beat is JJ (as it is unlikely > > that 66, 33, or TT are out based on previos action). > > I would say that it is entirely plausible that 66 or 33 are out there. You had enough limpers > preflop that somebody limping with 66 is going to hang onto it for the flop in hopes of hitting a > set...and if they hit the set then they will be playing it. You also have to realize here that even > if you are not beat, draws against you add up. You can have the best hand now, but have a slim > chance of winning if there are enough cards to improve your opponents. IMO, your hand isn't just > quite good enough to play balls-out. i understand your point (and based on your other posts really respect your opinion) about the limpers, but why would 66 or 33 flat call the flop with all the raising going on? Not only that, but assuming that 66 or 33 would flat call the flop, would they risk checking the turn too? Maybe I am missing something here, but the pot has gotten big at that point and if I have either of those hands, I won't risk giving QQ or above (a likely holding for the button) a chance to draw free at his two-outer on the turn. I realize that I lose a ton of chips to JJ with this strategy, but I take that chance. Anyway, as I thought through the hand, that is why I felt that 66 and 33 weren't live and why the CR on the turn was the correct play. Clearly if you are raised by anyone other than the button on the turn, then you have to re-evaluate and consider mucking. | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, stdioh, 26. Mar 2003 10:49 | ||
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| This is why little details of the hand are important. It wasn't raised until the button so it is very reasonable that somebody did limp with 33 or 66 and with that many players, holding on and hoping for a set becomes +EV ... so yes, it is not bad to limp there and then call 2. As for the guy with QQ, you're not folding him out, nomatter what, so it becomes a question of how big you want the pot to be. With a hand like this one, I figure I have a shot at winnning it, but I'd rather not start pumping the pot up. I'll hang on and let the other players do that. Here's an example from this year. I had AJ preflop and raised in late position, only to be limp-reraised from a middle position bettor. I called that and an early position player capped. There were about 6 of us in the hand. I was not holding out high hopes for my AJ. The flop came J high and I was cautious. When I turned a third jack I bet hard and when I rivered the fourth jack I was more than happy to put in a river bet. As it turns out, I hit a thousand to one shot with my running quads because I was badly beat on the flop. One player had AA, negating my ace outs and two players had sets already. When I hit my turn jack it filled two players and my only ability to overfull was counterfeited by the pocket aces. The fact is that I was beaten by three players on that flop, but only one of them had to beat me ... top pair top kicker only goes so far when a pot is multiway like that and there was a lot of action preflop. | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, shorn, 26. Mar 2003 11:41 | ||
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| All goods points. I still think that i would have CR'd the turn as he did though because I think the button is clearly on an overpair, and I still read both limpers (based on their check on the turn with a big pot and not wanting to give KQ a free card) as not having a set. Your example is well taken but you didn't tell how the action was on the turn form the two who had flopped sets (although it isn't apples to apples because they turned a boat). Anyway, I can see both sides of it and I think in this type of situation I am a better player if itcomes up (which it undoubtedly will during my career at some point). Thanks for all the idea sharing. | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, shorn, 26. Mar 2003 11:48 | ||
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| Also, re-reading the hand, one of the limpers 3-bet pre-flop which I can't imagine anyone doing with 66 or 33. Anyway, just the way I would have read it... | ||
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| Re: J10 suited in BB with heavy action, stdioh, 26. Mar 2003 12:58 | ||
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| on 26. Mar 2003 11:48 shorn wrote: > Also, re-reading the hand, one of the limpers 3-bet pre-flop which I can't imagine anyone doing with 66 or 33. > Anyway, just the way I would have read it... A threebet here with a small pocket pair isn't out of the realm of possibility. It's a nice hand to have in this situation as you have pot odds for it if you hit your set, but can duck out if you don't. By putting in another bet, you increase the pot odds for others on draws if you do hit your set. Now if you hit your set, you not only have the best hand, but you counterfeit other players' draws with your own draws to a tight. Also, don't forget the fish factor. I've seen a fish with with 64o in a hand that was capped preflop with only three players seeing the flop. Her answer when another player tried to educate her was, "I had to defend my blind." (to a raise and reraise before her). 33 is much more likely than 46, but the weird ones do happen. | ||
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