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Server Time: 10/15/2008 3:41:42 PM PACIFIC |
 Hold'em VS 7 stud, Moe, 24. Mar 2003 01:31 | ||
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| Can someone please help to settle a friendly dispute ? Which game requires more strategy and skill and is therefore more difficult between 7 stud and hold'em. I say that hold'em is tougher than stud and a friend insists that 7 stud is tougher. What do the experts say ? | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, stdioh, 24. Mar 2003 11:04 | ||
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| on 24. Mar 2003 01:31 Moe wrote: > Can someone please help to settle a friendly dispute ? > Which game requires more strategy and skill and is therefore more difficult > between 7 stud and hold'em. > I say that hold'em is tougher than stud and a friend insists that 7 stud is > tougher. What do the experts say ? I think that stud is tougher just because there are so many more variables. You don't have a common board, so you lose little things like knowing your tight isn't beat by quads, etc. There are a hell of a lot of cards which get folded in stud and a skilled player needs to remember all of them and use this information to calulate odds on the spot much more quickly. In holdem, and up/down draw is always an up/down draw, but in stud, you might be up and down to 2 outs. I'd say that being able to play either game bwtter than your opponents requires you to just be a better card player than you opponents, but in terms of which takes more time and experience to be an expert at, I would say stud is the one. But don't get me wrong - I love hold'em. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Mark B., 24. Mar 2003 11:41 | ||
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| I am a stud player and don't know if I consider stud more difficult, but it certainly requires a different set of skills. The key difference being the ability to remeber discards and analyze the best possible hand of multiple hands. My strenghts are card memory and figuring odds. I am terrible at readin body language and that hurts me in hold'em. Certainlyu this is a subjective question and one that can't be answered without dispute. I will say though that it is rare to find a player that is exceptional at both games. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, stdioh, 24. Mar 2003 13:54 | ||
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| on 24. Mar 2003 11:41 Mark B. wrote: > I am a stud player and don't know if I consider stud more difficult, but it certainly > requires a different set of skills. The key difference being the ability to remeber > discards and analyze the best possible hand of multiple hands. My strenghts are card > memory and figuring odds. I am terrible at readin body language and that hurts me in > hold'em. Certainlyu this is a subjective question and one that can't be answered without > dispute. I will say though that it is rare to find a player that is exceptional at both > games. Indeed. My strengths lie entirely in my reads. I'm *terrible* on the internet, except against whales. Likewise, I'm only ever in stud games when playing people who only play hold'em and omaha, but have been roped into a little HORSE. The scary part of that is that I have a bacherlor or mathematics...but I play human poker - I leave the math poker for the stud fiends :) | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Ashley Adams, 24. Mar 2003 19:22 | ||
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| Kind of like asking "Which is more difficult, the flute or the trumpet," no? If we're talking limit games, there's no question but that Stud requires more TYPES of skill. You have card memory in the mix, which you don't have in Hold Em. Some of the very best of each are excellent at the other. I'd also add that there seems good Stud players are more superior to bad Stud players than good Hold Em players are to bad Hold Em players. Maybe it's the extra betting round or maybe it's because a good Stud player can exploit his superiority in hand reading skills. But, all other things being equal (hands an hour, rake, etc.) I think a solid Stud player (not a World Champion) would make more money off of a table full of bad players than a solid Hold Em player would make off of a table full of bad Hold Em players. But I could be wrong about this. Ashley Adams I'd also add that, in my opinion, there are more awful Stud players than awful Hold Em players on 24. Mar 2003 01:31 Moe wrote: > Can someone please help to settle a friendly dispute ? > Which game requires more strategy and skill and is therefore more difficult > between 7 stud and hold'em. > I say that hold'em is tougher than stud and a friend insists that 7 stud is > tougher. What do the experts say ? | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Harold Pierce, Jr., 25. Mar 2003 02:38 | ||
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| In my opinion Texas Hold'em is a very inferior form of poker because it lacks the essential feature of a good poker game: You cannot change the distribution of cards on the next street by your betting action or inaction. Texas Hold'em, however, is quite popular because this form of poker is quite simple, the action is very fast, it is a real gambling game, and most importantly you do not have to remember any folded cards. Thus 7 stud is undoubtly the best type and most difficult form of poker, especially 7 stud high-low. Texas Hold'em is just a fancy form of 7 card showdown! MouseEars | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Nathaniel Brous, 25. Mar 2003 06:50 | ||
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| I don't have a concrete opinion on this subject, however that being said, the difficulty in holdem lies with it's lack of information. I believe the disparity between good holdem players vs. great holdem players is greater than good stud players vs. great stud players. It is much more difficult to "know" where you are in holdem game, whereas quite often a stud hand can "play" itself. That last statement may get a few comments. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, stdioh, 25. Mar 2003 07:14 | ||
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| on 25. Mar 2003 02:38 Harold Pierce, Jr. wrote: > In my opinion Texas Hold'em is a very inferior form of poker because it lacks the > essential feature of a good poker game: You cannot change the distribution of cards > on the next street by your betting action > or inaction. Texas Hold'em, however, is quite popular because this form of poker is > quite simple, the action is very fast, it is a real gambling game, and most > importantly you do not have to remember any folded cards. Thus 7 stud is undoubtly > the best type and most difficult form of poker, especially 7 stud high-low. Texas > Hold'em is just a fancy form of 7 card showdown! Yikes! Do you really think that by folding player A you can change the card that player B will get? That you can "change" your cards and your opponents cards? Unless you've got a clever way to peek at the cards still in the deck, this is irrelevant to the game. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Nathaniel Brous, 25. Mar 2003 07:30 | ||
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| on 25. Mar 2003 07:14 stdioh wrote: > Yikes! Do you really think that by folding player A you can change the card that player B will get? That you can "change" your cards and your opponents cards? Unless you've got a clever way to peek at the cards still in the deck, this is irrelevant to the game. Wow. I skimmed too quickly to pick that up. What I had thought he was referring to was the fact that there is not a fixed betting order in Stud and having to adjust for it. Rereading it, I wonder now wonder how I got that. Regardless of what he may have meant (let's give him the benefit of the doubt here), it is not what he wrote. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, timmer, 25. Mar 2003 09:06 | ||
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| on 25. Mar 2003 07:14 stdioh wrote: Unless you've got a > clever way to peek at the cards still in the deck, this is irrelevant to the game. I do and guess what Ill tell you just how I do it. I look at the exposed cards and remember the folded cards then I subtract them from a complete deck. then (presto chango , zim balla bim ) I magically know whats left in the deck. Henri Houdini actually taught me this trick during his last ressurection. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, stdioh, 25. Mar 2003 10:42 | ||
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| > I do and guess what Ill tell you just how I do it. I look at the exposed cards and remember > the folded cards then I subtract them from a complete deck. then (presto chango , zim balla bim > ) I magically know whats left in the deck. Henri Houdini actually taught me this trick during > his last ressurection. Yes, anybody can figure out what is left in the deck - knowing the order that they are to come out in requires a little more information and this is to what I refer. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, timmer, 26. Mar 2003 21:20 | ||
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| on 25. Mar 2003 10:42 stdioh wrote: > > I do and guess what Ill tell you just how I do it. I look at the exposed cards and remember > > the folded cards then I subtract them from a complete deck. then (presto chango , zim balla bim > > > ) I magically know whats left in the deck. Henri Houdini actually taught me this trick during > > his last ressurection. > > Yes, anybody can figure out what is left in the deck - knowing the order that they are to come out > in requires a little more information and this is to what I refer. Yeah like how to get and read marked cards. if you know what order they are in your either cheating or one hell of a shuffle tracker. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, stdioh, 27. Mar 2003 08:54 | ||
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| on 26. Mar 2003 21:20 timmer wrote: > on 25. Mar 2003 10:42 stdioh wrote: > > > I do and guess what Ill tell you just how I do it. I look at the exposed cards and remember > > > the folded cards then I subtract them from a complete deck. then (presto chango , zim balla bim > > > > > ) I magically know whats left in the deck. Henri Houdini actually taught me this trick during > > > his last ressurection. > > > > Yes, anybody can figure out what is left in the deck - knowing the order that they are to come out > > in requires a little more information and this is to what I refer. > > Yeah like how to get and read marked cards. if you know what order they are in your either cheating or > one hell of a shuffle tracker. Exactly my point. Thus, there is no advantage in making a bad play and knocking another player out in order to change the cards that players get, since you don't know what they are or what they will be when changed unless you are a cheat or a psychic. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Harold Pierce, Jr., 26. Mar 2003 17:58 | ||
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| How many times in a 7 stud game have you said to yourself: Gee, if I had raised instead of called, the player to my left probably would have folded, and would have received his card which would made my hand. In 7 stud it is important to raise to knock out players so as to increase the probability of receiving cards that will improve or fill your hand. - | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Nathaniel Brous, 26. Mar 2003 21:08 | ||
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| on 26. Mar 2003 17:58 Harold Pierce, Jr. wrote: > How many times in a 7 stud game have you said to yourself: Gee, if I had raised instead of called, the player to my left probably would have folded, and would have received his card which would made my hand. In 7 stud it is important to raise to knock out players so as to increase the probability of receiving cards that will improve or fill your hand. - Hey Harold, Please take this the right way (as in, I am trying to be helpful). Your last sentence is completely false. You do not increase the probability of receiving cards that will improve your hand. You can increase the probability for winning the hand, by raising your opponents and thinning the field. Don't get caught in the trap of second guessing every move you make (in relation to card order) in stud. You are correct that there will be times you could have played differently and that "may" have affected the outcome. This does not change the fact that there is generally a correct play in most situations. It is this "correct" play that will make you your money in the long run. Play out your thought process in that situation except now, the player on your right folds and the player on the left catches your fifth flush card. This type of thinking will not help you win. You can however, employ a similiar process for getting hands better than you to fold. Example: You can beat player A's hand but not C's hand. You raise A's bet forcing C to worry that A might reraise and you may get him to throw away his would be winner. Moral: Only worry about things you can change. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Harold Pierce, Jr., 27. Mar 2003 16:13 | ||
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| Unfortunately, there was an error in the first sentence: "left" should have been "right". However, I still stand by my statement. Of course, you do not know the order of what cards that will be dealt off the deck, but you do know that if there are many players in the hand, there is less of a chance of receiving cards that will improve your hand. By observing exposed cards on the board and any folded, you can estimate the odds of making your hand, and you can compare this value to the odds offered by the pot. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, Nathaniel Brous, 27. Mar 2003 20:09 | ||
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| When I first started playing, I too would agonize over what could have been. I would replay the hand in my head and try and see how I could have played it for a win. Over time, I came to an understanding that hands will or lose and that it didn't really matter much in the long run. What did matter, was how I played them "for" the long run. I won't ask you to accept what I say (and truly believe) is fact, but I hope you can keep the possibility alive that you may be wrong in this matter. A poker player with a closed mind is destined to keep repeating his play, for good or ill. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, stdioh, 27. Mar 2003 08:56 | ||
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| on 26. Mar 2003 17:58 Harold Pierce, Jr. wrote: > How many times in a 7 stud game have you said to yourself: Gee, if I had raised instead of > called, the player to my left probably would have folded, and would have received his card > which would made my hand. In 7 stud it is important to raise to knock out players so as to > increase the probability of receiving cards that will improve or fill your hand. - Give your head a shake. Just as often as you "change the order of the cards" to your advantage, you do it to your disadvantage. Who's to say where the card that improves your hand is? This is akin to the logic that says, "I should have kept my 72o because I would have flopped a tight." It is very very poor reasoning. | ||
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| Re: Hold'em VS 7 stud, chasepoker, 27. Mar 2003 10:53 | ||
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| I think Stud over Limit Hold 'Em but No Limit Hold 'Em over anything. | ||
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