United Poker Forum  

Server Time: 11/21/2008 12:28:08 AM PACIFIC  
NL tourney- two BB questions, Easy E, 23. Mar 2003 14:00
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Not sure if I played these correctly, would appreciate some input:

1) AK in the BB early in the tournament. I have T8000, about what I started with (I don't think I'd played a hand yet, can't remember). All of my table is just around the starting point as well.
Blinds 50/100, 2 limpers get raised by the button, making it T750 to go. I just called, as did one limper.
a) First mistake? Or is that a better choice, early on with limpers, waiting for the flop?

Flop is all Jessie Jackson babies- I check
b) Do I bet here? What is the minimum stack percentage I have to put in here to clear the field? I'm assuming that I'm not hoping for a call if I open.
Button bets another T750. I folded, as did the remaining limper.
c) Do I raise here, having checked the flop? Would you raise anything less than all-in? Was I wimpy with the fold- would anyone just call (to see what the limper would do) though I don't see that as a good play?

#1 BONUS- if it were later in the tournament, should I have been more aggressive than early?
2 scenarios:
a) Close to the money
b) Moving up the pay list and the stack size list

2) Final four, AQoff in BB. Button (tight player, even short-handed) raises about 10% of their stack (I'm slightly ahead of him, in second place). I call
d) Is this a "RR or F" situation?

Flop comes three babies again, two-tone. I have none of it. Checked to the turn.
e) Am I required to make a bet here? Would it have to be all-in?

King comes on the turn, I reraise the button, going all-in. Button easily calls with a King and I'm out.
f) Should I have given up with the King coming? Or did I blow any chance of stealing with the flop check?

#2 BONUS- What if it was a different situation (say, X spots out of getting into the money)? What should I have done differently (mucked the flop?)

Thanks
Easy E
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: NL tourney- two BB questions, Paul Stine, 23. Mar 2003 15:29
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
on 23. Mar 2003 14:00 Easy E wrote:
> Not sure if I played these correctly, would appreciate some input:
>
> 1) AK in the BB early in the tournament. I have T8000, about what I started
> with (I don't think I'd played a hand yet, can't remember). All of my table is
> just around the starting point as well.
> Blinds 50/100, 2 limpers get raised by the button, making it T750 to go.
> I just called, as did one limper.
> a) First mistake? Or is that a better choice, early on with limpers,
> waiting for the flop?

I'd be inclined to forget I ever saw the AK, muck it and wait for the next hand. Here is why:
I.) Bad position
II.) I'm a dog or barely even money to every hand, except a smaller Ace. If the raiser has a smaller ace, he still has better position (see I.)
III.) It is early in the tournament. I will see a lot of hands in better position over the course of the tournament. Early in a tournament I make each decision weighing these factors in this order: position, player, cards, stack. So here you have bad position, you know almost nothing about the other player, marginal cards (given the nature of NL), and the money is deep so it doens't much factor into this decision.
IV.) By not getting involved here you are avoiding a tricky situation that makes you answer the rest of the questions.



> Flop is all Jessie Jackson babies- I check

V.) You have nothing in the hand and nothing to draw at except a pair.

> b) Do I bet here? What is the minimum stack percentage I have to put in here
> to clear the field? I'm assuming that I'm not hoping for a call if I open.
> Button bets another T750. I folded, as did the remaining limper.

VI.) No. See V.
VII.) The only thing you are hoping to acheive with a bet here is to take the pot immediately. That being said, you are in bad position and (because it is early in the tourney) you know almost nothing about what your opponent(s) might actually have (except that it was good enough in one spot to call raise two limper and the blinds and in the other to overcall a pre-flop raise.)

VIII.) Good move.

> c) Do I raise here, having checked the flop? Would you raise anything less
> than all-in? Was I wimpy with the fold- would anyone just call (to see what the
> limper would do) though I don't see that as a good play?
>

IX.) So, you are going to check raise a pre-flop raiser about whom all you really know is that his hand was good enough to raise with pre-flop and bet on the flop: a stone bluff into a player you don't know anything about. I assume that you have something you would rather be doing than playing this tourney.
X.) Irrelavent. I wouldn't be in this situation.
XI.) Doesn't matter if it was wimpy or not. It was the right thing to do, the smart thing to do. IMHO, you made a bad call pre-flop but wised up and didn't compound it with putting more money in the pot.

> #1 BONUS- if it were later in the tournament, should I have been more
> aggressive than early?

XII.) Later in the tourney you know more about how your opponent plays and whether your pre-flop re-raise or flop-steal is likely to work to get you the pot.

> 2 scenarios:
> a) Close to the money

XIII.) Close to the money most people tend to be more conservative because they are hoping to make the money. (I'm not sure that raising two limpers puts your opponent in this catagory.) If this seems to be the case for your steal might have a better chance of working, but you still have to get ALL THREE players to fold for it to be successful. So,it comes down to knowing your opponent.

> b) Moving up the pay list and the stack size list

XIV.) The majority of the money is in the top three places. When everyone is in the money, some people will become super aggressive (irrationally so) some will completely clam up in order to limp up the ladder. The supers often burn bright and fast, leaving in ashes. The clams rarely win but finish in the lower places. Like in almost all poker situations, you can't rigidly do one thing or the other, you have to make good decisions.

XV.) When the small stacks open/act aggressively, they aren't going to be pushed off a hand. You are going to have to showdown a better hand to beat them. Big stacks will take off the short stacks while avoiding the other big stacks without solid values.

> 2) Final four, AQoff in BB. Button (tight player, even short-handed) raises
> about 10% of their stack (I'm slightly ahead of him, in second place). I call
> d) Is this a "RR or F" situation?

XVI.) Late in a tournament I make each decision weighing these factors in this order: player, position, stack, cards. You describe the button as tight, but not normally aggressive or passive, he has position on you (but you are in position to steal on the flop), your cards are good for a short handed game (but if the tight player is normally passive they may not be good enough to play), and you have enough stack to put him to a test for all his chips without getting knocked out but risk (probably) being crippled.

XVII.) Without more information I would be inclined to call.

> Flop comes three babies again, two-tone. I have none of it. Checked to the
> turn.
> e) Am I required to make a bet here? Would it have to be all-in?

XVIII.) You don't have a hand, so you can probably only beat a bluff. Your position gives you the right of first bluff. If you decide that you are going to see this to the end then I think you have to put it all in. If you check, you should give it up to any action by the button.

XIX.) You don't mention if the button bet and you called, or if he checked on the flop. I am guessing that he also checked.

>
> King comes on the turn, I reraise the button, going all-in. Button easily
> calls with a King and I'm out.
> f) Should I have given up with the King coming? Or did I blow any
> chance of stealing with the flop check?

XX.) If the button checked on the flop and bet the turn, I think you have to give it up. Again, you can only beat a bluff, here and if your opponent has a K (which he may well have and, in fact, did) he will not fold anytime between now and kingdom-come.

> #2 BONUS- What if it was a different situation (say, X spots out of getting
> into the money)? What should I have done differently (mucked the flop?)

XXI.) Depends on your stack size, and the opponent and his stack size. Busting on the bubble pays the same as busting first. Ideally, you want to be in a position in which your opponent can not bust you. Along that line of thought, you never want to get all your chips in without being solidly in the lead, not 50:50, not 3:2, I am talking AA against AK or an underpair. I should mention that my idea of a perfectly tournament is one in which I never have to showdown my hand until I knock out the second place finisher. I am not interested in how many players I can eliminate, you don't get paid for that.

XXII.) Mucking on the flop, if bet into, would have been more prudent. Of course, if you know your opponent this decision is all that much easier.

> Thanks
> Easy E

Paul Stine
College Station, TX
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: NL tourney- two BB questions, stdioh, 24. Mar 2003 11:14
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
> I'd be inclined to forget I ever saw the AK, muck it and wait for the next hand.
> Here is why:
> I.) Bad position
> II.) I'm a dog or barely even money to every hand, except a smaller Ace. If the
> raiser has a smaller ace, he still has better position (see I.)
> III.) It is early in the tournament. I will see a lot of hands in better position
> over the course of the tournament. Early in a tournament I make each decision
> weighing these factors in this order: position, player, cards, stack. So here you
> have bad position, you know almost nothing about the other player, marginal cards
> (given the nature of NL), and the money is deep so it doens't much factor into this
> decision.
> IV.) By not getting involved here you are avoiding a tricky situation that makes you
> answer the rest of the questions.

Indeed, AK is something to chuck here...wait for your AA or KK in this situation. Now if you know that the third player is coming in, your AK is actually a little better. The second caller almost certainly does not have AA or KK, so if you hit, you've probably got the best of it. AK is a lovely hand to play against two opponents, each of whom have a smaller pocket pair, since they've only got 4 outs between the two of them. The problem comes in if you are playing one opponent with a pair and another with a big ace. Now one of your outs is gone and possibly two, since AK vs. AK happens a lot. A pair is a very nice favourite against two players holding counterfeit overcards.

I think that a raise is unwarranted there unless the bet came from an ultra-fish who raises any ace like that and you want isolation. Really, I think that's time to muck your AK...I just disagree mildly with Paul's dislike of the 3-handedness. Ideally, you want to play your AK against a biggish field. You want enough players to pay you off if you hit, but not enough that 1 pair is unlikely to win. I like to take my AK against 2-3 opponents, especially if one raised and another called that raise.

But indeed, that early in the tourney, there is no reason to call a bet of that size with anything but AA or KK and even throwing away KK here is not unheard of.

> > Flop is all Jessie Jackson babies- I check
>
> V.) You have nothing in the hand and nothing to draw at except a pair.
>
> > b) Do I bet here? What is the minimum stack percentage I have to put in here
> > to clear the field? I'm assuming that I'm not hoping for a call if I open.
> > Button bets another T750. I folded, as did the remaining limper.
>
> VI.) No. See V.
> VII.) The only thing you are hoping to acheive with a bet here is to take the pot
> immediately. That being said, you are in bad position and (because it is early in the
> tourney) you know almost nothing about what your opponent(s) might actually have
> (except that it was good enough in one spot to call raise two limper and the blinds
> and in the other to overcall a pre-flop raise.)
>
> VIII.) Good move.
>
> > c) Do I raise here, having checked the flop? Would you raise anything less
> > than all-in? Was I wimpy with the fold- would anyone just call (to see what the
>
> > limper would do) though I don't see that as a good play?
> >
>
> IX.) So, you are going to check raise a pre-flop raiser about whom all you really
> know is that his hand was good enough to raise with pre-flop and bet on the flop: a
> stone bluff into a player you don't know anything about. I assume that you have
> something you would rather be doing than playing this tourney.
> X.) Irrelavent. I wouldn't be in this situation.
> XI.) Doesn't matter if it was wimpy or not. It was the right thing to do, the smart
> thing to do. IMHO, you made a bad call pre-flop but wised up and didn't compound it
> with putting more money in the pot.
>
> > #1 BONUS- if it were later in the tournament, should I have been more
> > aggressive than early?
>
> XII.) Later in the tourney you know more about how your opponent plays and whether
> your pre-flop re-raise or flop-steal is likely to work to get you the pot.
>
> > 2 scenarios:
> > a) Close to the money
>
> XIII.) Close to the money most people tend to be more conservative because they are
> hoping to make the money. (I'm not sure that raising two limpers puts your opponent
> in this catagory.) If this seems to be the case for your steal might have a better
> chance of working, but you still have to get ALL THREE players to fold for it to be
> successful. So,it comes down to knowing your opponent.
>
> > b) Moving up the pay list and the stack size list
>
> XIV.) The majority of the money is in the top three places. When everyone is in the
> money, some people will become super aggressive (irrationally so) some will
> completely clam up in order to limp up the ladder. The supers often burn bright and
> fast, leaving in ashes. The clams rarely win but finish in the lower places. Like in
> almost all poker situations, you can't rigidly do one thing or the other, you have to
> make good decisions.
>
> XV.) When the small stacks open/act aggressively, they aren't going to be pushed off
> a hand. You are going to have to showdown a better hand to beat them. Big stacks will
> take off the short stacks while avoiding the other big stacks without solid values.
>
> > 2) Final four, AQoff in BB. Button (tight player, even short-handed) raises
> > about 10% of their stack (I'm slightly ahead of him, in second place). I call
> > d) Is this a "RR or F" situation?
>
> XVI.) Late in a tournament I make each decision weighing these factors in this
> order: player, position, stack, cards. You describe the button as tight, but not
> normally aggressive or passive, he has position on you (but you are in position to
> steal on the flop), your cards are good for a short handed game (but if the tight
> player is normally passive they may not be good enough to play), and you have enough
> stack to put him to a test for all his chips without getting knocked out but risk
> (probably) being crippled.
>
> XVII.) Without more information I would be inclined to call.
>
> > Flop comes three babies again, two-tone. I have none of it. Checked to the
> > turn.
> > e) Am I required to make a bet here? Would it have to be all-in?
>
> XVIII.) You don't have a hand, so you can probably only beat a bluff. Your position
> gives you the right of first bluff. If you decide that you are going to see this to
> the end then I think you have to put it all in. If you check, you should give it up
> to any action by the button.
>
> XIX.) You don't mention if the button bet and you called, or if he checked on the
> flop. I am guessing that he also checked.
>
> >
> > King comes on the turn, I reraise the button, going all-in. Button easily
> > calls with a King and I'm out.
> > f) Should I have given up with the King coming? Or did I blow any
> > chance of stealing with the flop check?
>
> XX.) If the button checked on the flop and bet the turn, I think you have to give it
> up. Again, you can only beat a bluff, here and if your opponent has a K (which he may
> well have and, in fact, did) he will not fold anytime between now and kingdom-come.
>
> > #2 BONUS- What if it was a different situation (say, X spots out of getting
> > into the money)? What should I have done differently (mucked the flop?)
>
> XXI.) Depends on your stack size, and the opponent and his stack size. Busting on
> the bubble pays the same as busting first. Ideally, you want to be in a position in
> which your opponent can not bust you. Along that line of thought, you never want to
> get all your chips in without being solidly in the lead, not 50:50, not 3:2, I am
> talking AA against AK or an underpair. I should mention that my idea of a perfectly
> tournament is one in which I never have to showdown my hand until I knock out the
> second place finisher. I am not interested in how many players I can eliminate, you
> don't get paid for that.
>
> XXII.) Mucking on the flop, if bet into, would have been more prudent. Of course, if
> you know your opponent this decision is all that much easier.
>
> > Thanks
> > Easy E
>
> Paul Stine
> College Station, TX
>
        Return to Thread List
 
 
       POKER FORUM HOME   |   POKER FORUM   |   LINK TO US   |   ARCHIVE   |   ONLINE POKER Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum  
Getting Started |  UPF Tournaments |  Poker News, Views, Rules |  Poker Strategy & Psychology |  Money and Bankroll
Poker Bonuses & Promotions |  World Series of Poker (WSOP) |  Play Online Poker |  Poker Odds & Statistics |  Tournament Poker |  Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools
Looking for a Poker Game |  Poker Bad Beats |  Not Quite Poker |  Quizzes and Polls |  Forum Suggestions & Bugs

Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network