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Server Time: 11/21/2008 1:52:47 AM PACIFIC |
 Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, Chad, 18. Mar 2003 12:34 | ||
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| I have been a lurker of this site for months now as well as posting a few times some while back. I find it interesting how many posts are made weekly concerning the legitimacy of online poker. I know I have posted 2 or 3 times asking for advice on online card rooms. I was told by many to try Planet and UB. I want to preface what I am about to say by saying that I am not whining that online play is totally rigged. But I think there are some quite odd events that go on at sites. First of all I tried Planet Poker, I play mainly 3-6 or 5-10. I also love tourneys, NL, and play fairly decent poker as I rarely lose in live games. I know everyone here says that but it is the truth. I must admit that my experience at Planet was quite unsatisfying as the first night of play I get in a 6 handed 5-10 game and after playing into the wee hours of the night the following occurs: I am on the button with AsKs, and have been playing tight aggressive poker. A guy in the SB has been playing fairly tight himself. Now at this time the game has gotten down to 4 players and I know I am about to quit for the night. First guy in (fair player) raises, I 3 bet on button with my AsKs, SB calls, BB folds. Flop comes AK5, with the 5 being a spade. First player checks I bet SB raises, checker folds, I reraise, SB 4 bets it, I call thinking the son of a bitch must have flopped trip 5's. Turn card brings a 2s, giving be 2 top pair and nut flush draw, SB bets I raise (Just to make sure he has trips and not A5), SB reraises and I call. River brings another 2, SB bets I decide to just call. He had K2os in the hole!!!!!!!!!! Calls 2.5 bets preflop in the SB with K2os, then proceeds to play the hand on the flop the way he did and just happens to catch runner runner 2's? I don't think so. This is the craziest hand I have still ever seen in 10000's of hands of poker. So let me move on to tell what I have found and some theories that I have. First off I have been much more satisfied with UB. I have faired well there and find the cards to run as close to normal as you will find compared to Paradise, Party, and especially Planet. Through today I have posted a tidy little profit and other than a couple of checks I requested for withdrawals being delivered a little tardy, I am very happy with there customer service. I now only play at UB and even though I am satisfied in making it my internet poker home, I still have some theories that I wish to pass along to you who want to play internet poker but just can't convince yourself that it is on the up and up. A) Play during the day or early evening, this is considered peak minutes and you are much more likely to find a game full of honest human players. What I mean by this is that I feel if a site is going to cheat or if there is collusion going on between players, it is much more likely to happen at 2-5 in the morning when games are shorthanded and the site needs to make up for the lack of rake. B) Do a lot more checking a calling when there is only one hand out there on the board that can beat you. In live games it is much more profitable to bet your trips into a str8 that was only obtainable by drawing for a gutshot on the river, in internet poker it isn't. If there is someone left in the pot and you don't have the nuts on the river, more times that not they do. I don't know if this is because of the inordinant amount of bad players online or what, but it seems like runner runner gutshots are far more common at internet sites. C) I have had very bad luck with NL tourneys at UB. I would say that over the last 2 and a half months I have had some moron go all in on me with 22's wired or a complete bluff and me holding AA's or KK's wired, only to see the river bring the miracle card for them to beat me. You have to play NL tourneys different online, take more gambles of giving up free cards so that you know that you have the nuts when no cards are left to come. I recently played in the top 300 UB points earners 6000 dollar freeroll and had QJ in the SB. A guy who had played fairly good poker to that point had KJ and had simply called before the flop, I called a half bet, BB checks, 3 to the flop. Flops comes Q53 rainbow, I lead out betting 250 (blinds were up to 50-100 at the time with about half the field already being eliminated) BB folds, Limper raises me 750 ( PS we both started the hand with about 3500), I think for a moment and feel like the most likely hand he has is QT or we are tied at QJ. With AQ or KQ I think he raises preflop. I smooth call the raise. Turn card is a complete blank that completes the rainbow, I check he goes all in, I think for about 30 seconds and decide to call. He turns over KJ I have QJ he is dead to a K. What do you think the river brings? Yep a K I would say that in about half the tourneys I play in, the all in hands that are the major dogs with one card to come, find a way to win with a miracle card. I know this message may seem like continuous blabber but I just feel like after many different experiences online, some people might be able to learn from my encounters. In other words I think it is possible to win online, I just think you have to be very disciplined about the do's and don'ts that you learn while playing. It isn't like playing holdem in a casino where anyone that can read a book can learn how to win, there are more intangibles online and you better learn what to stay away from or you will be the next person leaving a post about how you got ripped off. GL TO ALL CHAD | ||
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| Re: Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, Chad, 18. Mar 2003 12:43 | ||
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| When discussing the point about the NL tourneys I mistakenly left out the number of times morons have gone all in on me with 22's wired or a complete bluff, etc. etc. I would estimate that 20-30 times over the past 75 days someone has caught a 2 outer or one outer on river for ALL IN miracle win. But the main thing is the number of times I have seen it happen to others. I feel the tourneys at UB may be slightly tilted to the poorer players. I am currently considering staying away from tourneys at UB but will continue to play the LL holdem there. Chad | ||
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| Re: Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, stdioh, 18. Mar 2003 13:35 | ||
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| That *is* a very unlikely hand ... not the worst I've seen though. I think that one thing about internet play is that it is harder for justice to be seen to be done. Let me give you some examples of live play where craziness happened. I'm holding AJ, flop a jack, turn a jack, and river a jack for quads. Two other players flopped sets and one had pocket aces. I was drawing slim to exactly running quads against monsters and I hit. If this happened on the internet, I'm sure that it would look like cheating to the others at the table, but these things happen. How about this one. Howie, a solid player at 5-10 is sleepy and dirty one morning - looks like his wife threw him out. He's oftentimes dozing between hands and calling ridiculous things because he seems to not care. He makes some amazing slim draw and everybody says "wow" - but it is reasonable because we can see the self destructive state that he is in - online you wouldn't see this. It could just be that for whatever reason, the guy thought that you were full of beans so he went wild with the king. Then he caught 2 pair so he figured he was good and would punish you for your ace. Then he tightened up. I'm not saying that it is likely to happen, but it's not out of the realm of possibility either. I guess, all I'm saying is that the possibility of being cheated online is very real, but if I think it's at all likely that I will be cheated, then I won't play there and if I think I'm ok playing there, it's going to take more than an oddball hand to convince me that I am being cheated. Aside from that, I think the risk of playing online is a lot higher that you'll just not get paid when you cash out than you will be dealt specious cards. Again, I'll mention that Victor Chandler poker owes me money that they flat refused to pay me...the decided to "disqualify" me from a tournament a few days after I won it, for no good reason...because I tried to cash out. | ||
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| Re: Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, Raddock, 18. Mar 2003 13:57 | ||
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| I have a standard reply to the "internet is rigged" theory, and here it is: As a tight-aggressive player, you don't play too many hands, generally-speaking. When you are playing live, you can go an ETERNITY without taking a flop. Haven't you noticed that this doesn't happen when you're playing online? Throw in the fact that you're playing at a 5-Max table (available only online, and which both encourages more aggressive play AND throws the button around the table that much faster), and you've got one great answer for what seems like a disproportionately higher number of zany beats (you know the answer): YOU SEE SO MANY MORE HANDS ONLINE, EVERYTHING HAPPENS EXPONENTIALLY FASTER AND MORE FREQUENTLY. Let's add more: Many players online have never played live poker, believe it or not. Many are, well, NOT VERY GOOD. Internet poker encourages players to be less self-conscious about preflop calling standards and chasing with rags, because they don't have to look their accusers in the face, they're just some blinking icon. There isn't the embarassment factor; you don't blush because there's nobody there to see you blush. So there's one less reason NOT to chase. So...they.........CHASE!!!! They love the action. They love the rush. Lastly, let's understand the business of internet poker: The second most insisted-upon element of any internet poker room is integrity (the first being game accessibilty, of course). This demand is unique to internet poker, at least to the degree that random number generation and "Integrity" are discussed at every site's home page (note that you don't see anything posted outside the brick-and-mortar casino indicating the proficiency of the dealers' SHUFFLING, and the carved-in-stone policy regarding all 52 cards being in the deck). As for cheating: collusion is easy to spot, and will be over-reported, actually. No poker room has any incentive whatsoever to look the other way on cheating. To the contrary, actually--they make their money as long as the games are running, and the games will not be running if word gets out that there's cheating going on. It's just not worth jeopardizing the cash cow. I don't know, but I suspect a lot of people suspect this "rigged internet" thing. But a lot of people saw Elvis pumping gas at the Exxon station last week, too. The CIA put a radio in their brains, you know. | ||
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| Re: Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, Mark, 19. Mar 2003 08:46 | ||
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| excellent points, i agree 100% | ||
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| Re: Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, 3Kings, 19. Mar 2003 07:50 | ||
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| If you have never seen anyone call with K2o in a live game, come to my casino. I've seen people cap it with Q3o and the flop comes 33x. When you play and showdown the best hand, most people will muck their hands. You then assume that they had a decent starting hand and you just had a better hand. It could be very possible that they are playing any two cards, hit a portion of the flop and stayed to the river and muck it when they are beat. If I was playing shorthanded and the button raised, I would probably call with any K (if I thought you were trying to steal the blinds) and when the flop contained a K, I would have stayed. Now this is shorthanded not a full game where I wouldn't hesitate to fold it. As it has been said before, you are getting 3 times the hands you are in a live game, thereofre, you will see more beats. Also, in a live game, the person might have folded as he could have read you for a strong hand. Playing online poker is all about strategy as it is hard to pick up tells. You might be able to pick up tendencies but you will never see your opponent sweat or shake. That is why you have to know what you are doing which most players think they do, but, don't. | ||
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| Re: Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, Mark, 19. Mar 2003 08:23 | ||
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| i'm always surprised that players who think of themselves as "good" are surprised when other players make bad plays. By far, most of my profit comes from opponents making silly mistakes. Sometimes, I considered the player tight until he does something stupid. Usually they go on a semi-tilt from getting bored playing their tight style and do something uncharacteristic. But this is where most of your profit will come from. This is exactly what Caro was talking about with his law of "Least tilt". At a table of equal opponents, the player that tilts least will win. Sure these players burn you sometimes, but i love having players go all-in against me with 22 or on a bluff. I would love it if they did it every hand, you'd be crazy not to. Once in a while they get lucky, most times they don't. And when they don't they can quitely fold and you think they had a decent hand that came up second best. Learn to love these players and congratulate them every time they make a long shot draw, you'll make more money in the end mark | ||
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| Re: Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, mroban, 19. Mar 2003 09:42 | ||
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| you always remember the bad beats a lot more than the great wins. Probably because players muck their hands and we can't always tell what garbage we were actually playing against or whether or not we beat a player with a good hand. I have had similar experiences with bad beats (who hasn't) and usually from "bad" players that hang around in cheap games. I would not accuse any site of any chicanery unless I had specific evidence. If you are winning generally and occasionally get "suspicious" bad beats, then I wouldn't complain. Winning is winning and bad beats are part of the game. We all live with them. | ||
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| Re: Not your normal "internet is rigged" message:, 3Kings, 19. Mar 2003 10:12 | ||
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| To emphasize your point. When I was in Vegas 18 months ago, I had a dealer who said he like dealing at the rooms with the low limits because the high limit players were arrogant. If they won, it was because they made a great play. If they lost, either it was the dealer's fault or the other player made a bad call and got lucky. | ||
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