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Server Time: 5/16/2012 9:14:29 PM PACIFIC |
 NL hold'em (online), Mark, 11. Mar 2003 23:26 | ||
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| This happened at planet poker (i haven't lost all my money yet), anyway, as i'm new to no limit poker, i need to know what I should have done here. The game is no limit texas hold'em with $0.25-0.50 blinds and a $50 max buy-in. I'm in late with Q-10 offsuit. An early position player raises his normal $2.00 open. He will open for this amount with generally any two face cards. There are a couple of callers, and I call knowing I have a solid read on the raiser. The other callers tend to call a little too much, and may have hands as strong as mine.(not that it is all that strong) The pot is approx $9.00 (with 1 all-in player) The flop is 7,8,9. The pre-flop raiser bets $3.00. Into a pot this size, his bet means small pair, a draw, or over cards. The 2 pre-flop callers again call, and i call with an open ended draw. $21.00 in the pot. Turn is a J, giving me the nut straight. It is checked to me. I KNOW (read : i think) the pre-flop raise is now drawing, maybe dead, however, he likes to call draws without pot odds. He bets medium hands and goes all-in with semi-strong hands, so i know he doesn't have much. This is where i need help! As I see it, at this point I have two options 1.) I can make a pot size bet and probably take it down or 2.) i can make a smaller bet and get the pre-flop raiser to draw. What should I do? The pot is decent and i would be happy with it, but I can probably extract more money with a slim chance i can get beaten. The only river card that could beat me would be a 10, as the drawer may have QK or QA. If he had 10-k, he would have bet into me so a Q falling does not hurt me. I bet $7.00 (giving him 4-1) knowing he would call with the longest of odds. He called and the others folded. Anyway, in situations like this, do I want to take the pot down immediately or is making more money worth the risk of being drawn out on? thanks for your advice mark | ||
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| Re: NL hold'em (online), Andrew Wells, 12. Mar 2003 02:56 | ||
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| I would have mucked QTo before the flop. But having arrived at the turn with the current but not unbeatable nuts (and assuming you have a large stack), I would consider betting about half as much as the player you suspect will call with the draw has in his stack. There's also no problem with just pushing all-in at this point too. KQ is the only hand you lose to, but it would be hard to see someone playing this hand with such a coordinated flop. You probably only risk chopping the pot with another queen. So, you should just bet as much as you need to either get called or have someone go all-in. Exactly how much depends on what your opponent's stack size is relative to the pot and your stack. I would err on the side of a larger bet rather than a smaller one here. If you're going to get played with in such a large pot, the size of the bet may not even matter. | ||
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| Re: NL hold'em (online), stdioh, 12. Mar 2003 08:05 | ||
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| on 11. Mar 2003 23:26 Mark wrote: > This happened at planet poker (i haven't lost all my money yet), anyway, as i'm > new to no limit poker, i need to know what I should have done here. > > The game is no limit texas hold'em with $0.25-0.50 blinds and a $50 max > buy-in. > > I'm in late with Q-10 offsuit. An early position player raises his normal > $2.00 open. He will open for this amount with generally any two face cards. > There are a couple of callers, and I call knowing I have a solid read on the > raiser. The other callers tend to call a little too much, and may have hands as > strong as mine.(not that it is all that strong) > > The pot is approx $9.00 (with 1 all-in player) > > The flop is 7,8,9. > > The pre-flop raiser bets $3.00. Into a pot this size, his bet means small > pair, a draw, or over cards. The 2 pre-flop callers again call, and i call with > an open ended draw. > > $21.00 in the pot. > > Turn is a J, giving me the nut straight. > > It is checked to me. I KNOW (read : i think) the pre-flop raise is now > drawing, maybe dead, however, he likes to call draws without pot odds. He bets > medium hands and goes all-in with semi-strong hands, so i know he doesn't have > much. > > This is where i need help! > > As I see it, at this point I have two options 1.) I can make a pot size bet > and probably take it down or 2.) i can make a smaller bet and get the pre-flop > raiser to draw. > > What should I do? The pot is decent and i would be happy with it, but I can > probably extract more money with a slim chance i can get beaten. The only river > card that could beat me would be a 10, as the drawer may have QK or QA. If he > had 10-k, he would have bet into me so a Q falling does not hurt me. > > I bet $7.00 (giving him 4-1) knowing he would call with the longest of odds. > He called and the others folded. > > Anyway, in situations like this, do I want to take the pot down immediately or > is making more money worth the risk of being drawn out on? > > thanks for your advice > > mark The answer to your question, as with many, is "it depends"...you have a monster and you want to extract more money from him. Don't worry about redraws. I would suggest that you bet heavilly, hoping that he's got a made hand worse than yours. Much more important is the issue of your calling with QTo. If he's holding a hand at least as good as 2 face cards, then you still shouldn't play that pig against him. Wait for better cards. | ||
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| Re: NL hold'em (online), Mark, 12. Mar 2003 12:29 | ||
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| > Much more important is the issue of your calling with QTo. If he's holding a hand at > least as good as 2 face cards, then you still shouldn't play that pig against him. > Wait for better cards. I usually muck Q-10 offsuit against a raise, but in this case, knowing i can out play my opponent as I have a solid read on his play, why can't i play it. I have position and will not draw on the flop without good pots odds. Mark | ||
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| Re: NL hold'em (online), stdioh, 12. Mar 2003 12:44 | ||
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| > I usually muck Q-10 offsuit against a raise, but in this case, knowing i can out play my > opponent as I have a solid read on his play, why can't i play it. > > I have position and will not draw on the flop without good pots odds. Fair enough. I'm generally a loose-agressive player myself and rely on my reads more than my cards, so I can't say anything about this. The caveat is that you tend to be a lot swingier when you play that way, but if you can pull it off, it can be very lucrative. | ||
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| Re: NL hold'em (online), Andrew Wells, 12. Mar 2003 12:45 | ||
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| Because the money you put in before the flop is a losing proposition overall. Every time you miss or flop something marginal like top pair, those extra bets add up. Overall I would expect you to get a comfortable flop around 15% of the time. Out of that 15%, you may get bet off your hand or lose more about 40% of the time. I know these are just rough estimates, but you should see that you get a return on your money only about 8% of the time. So, you'd need eleven opponents in the hand to break even with the pre-flop investment. I've yet to see a twelve handed hold'em table. | ||
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| Re: NL hold'em (online), Mark, 12. Mar 2003 12:50 | ||
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| on 12. Mar 2003 12:45 Andrew Wells wrote: > Because the money you put in before the flop is a losing proposition overall. Every time you > miss or flop something marginal like top pair, those extra bets add up. Overall I would expect > you to get a comfortable flop around 15% of the time. Out of that 15%, you may get bet off your > hand or lose more about 40% of the time. I know these are just rough estimates, but you should > see that you get a return on your money only about 8% of the time. So, you'd need eleven > opponents in the hand to break even with the pre-flop investment. I've yet to see a twelve > handed hold'em table. Fair enough, but there were many times i didn't need a favorable flop to beat this opponent, as long as it didn't hit him either. However, he was not the only other person in the hand, there were a few limpers and you give a good argument. Mark | ||
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| Re: NL hold'em (online), stdioh, 12. Mar 2003 14:38 | ||
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| on 12. Mar 2003 12:50 Mark wrote: > on 12. Mar 2003 12:45 Andrew Wells wrote: > > Because the money you put in before the flop is a losing proposition overall. Every time you > > miss or flop something marginal like top pair, those extra bets add up. Overall I would expect > > you to get a comfortable flop around 15% of the time. Out of that 15%, you may get bet off your > > > hand or lose more about 40% of the time. I know these are just rough estimates, but you should > > see that you get a return on your money only about 8% of the time. So, you'd need eleven > > opponents in the hand to break even with the pre-flop investment. I've yet to see a twelve > > handed hold'em table. > > Fair enough, but there were many times i didn't need a favorable flop to beat this opponent, as > long as it didn't hit him either. > > However, he was not the only other person in the hand, there were a few limpers and you give a > good argument. > > Mark Indeed. You can never make money as a loose agressive player unless your reads are exceptional. You need to be able to bluff successfully more than your average sklanskyite and you also need to be able to release a top pair decent kicker hand when you are beat. | ||
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