United Poker Forum

Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:05:24 AM PACIFIC  
QJs - A tough hand to play, Andrew Wells, 10. Mar 2003 22:23
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
I'm in the cutoff with QcJc and raise. The button is an average regular player who is about even for this session. The small blind has deep pockets, just had to change a couple of black checks and is a known action player who is currently stuck a rack. The big blind is a solid full time pro. I had been picking up a lot of blinds earlier, before the action player took the nine seat. The player on the button had been showing respect for my late position raises, and had not yet played back at me. I was therefore somewhat surprised when he called $30 cold behind my raise. The small blind called as expected, and the pot was offering decent odds for the big blind to call as well. So with 8 small bets in the pot, the four of us saw the flop come Jd 8c 4d. Both blinds checked, and I bet. I was going to let it go if I got checkraised, but I thought I could be in the lead and didn't want to give a free card that might let one of the blinds pick up a backdoor diamond draw. I also didn't want to check top pair to the button who called two bets cold before the flop. If the button were to raise and it became heads-up, I was planning to call and bet at a blank on the turn. The button just called, as did the small blind. The pro in the big blind mucked, which was as much as I could have hoped for on the flop. The 9s fell on the turn giving me a gut shot to go with top pair, but taking away the backdoor flush possibility. The small blind checked, and I felt I was still in the lead since the button had not raised on the flop. I bet again, and just the button called. The Jh came on the river, making the board Jd 8c 4d 9s Jh. The button will sometimes bluff raise on the river, and I hadn't seen this move from him as yet. He will usually check a busted hand on the river from last position. He wouldn't have called my raise cold before the flop with a hand as weak as QTs, so I don't believe he was slow playing the made straight. He would not have slow played a set with one of the blinds in the hand, and drawing possibilities alive. He might have pocket tens, but probably would have made it three bets before the flop. So, I bet the river and got raised. He either has the case jack which is probably not good for me, or a busted draw like KQ or AT. I called and was shown the best hand the whole way KsJs. I suppose I could have check/called the river, but it is difficult to make that play. He would have bet the flop, so I could have made a deep checkraise and maybe got him to lay down on the turn. But I had sound reasons for betting the flop instead. I could have checkraised the turn and he might have read me for a set of nines, but I shouldn't give a possible free card here. I couldn't lay it down before the flop, I wanted the small blind's action with position. I suppose this hand just shows how dangerous playing a QJ is, even from late position. Maybe there's something I missed here, so I'm open to any comments or critique.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: QJs - A tough hand to play, Roy Cooke, 10. Mar 2003 22:50
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Assuming you are reading the players correctly, I don't know how you could make a different decision on any street!

Roy Cooke

on 10. Mar 2003 22:23 Andrew Wells wrote:
> I'm in the cutoff with QcJc and raise. The button is an average regular player
> who is about even for this session. The small blind has deep pockets, just had
> to change a couple of black checks and is a known action player who is currently
> stuck a rack. The big blind is a solid full time pro. I had been picking up a
> lot of blinds earlier, before the action player took the nine seat. The player
> on the button had been showing respect for my late position raises, and had not
> yet played back at me. I was therefore somewhat surprised when he called $30
> cold behind my raise. The small blind called as expected, and the pot was
> offering decent odds for the big blind to call as well. So with 8 small bets in
> the pot, the four of us saw the flop come Jd 8c 4d. Both blinds checked, and I
> bet. I was going to let it go if I got checkraised, but I thought I could be in
> the lead and didn't want to give a free card that might let one of the blinds
> pick up a backdoor diamond draw. I also didn't want to check top pair to the
> button who called two bets cold before the flop. If the button were to raise and
> it became heads-up, I was planning to call and bet at a blank on the turn. The
> button just called, as did the small blind. The pro in the big blind mucked,
> which was as much as I could have hoped for on the flop. The 9s fell on the turn
> giving me a gut shot to go with top pair, but taking away the backdoor flush
> possibility. The small blind checked, and I felt I was still in the lead since
> the button had not raised on the flop. I bet again, and just the button called.
> The Jh came on the river, making the board Jd 8c 4d 9s Jh. The button will
> sometimes bluff raise on the river, and I hadn't seen this move from him as yet.
> He will usually check a busted hand on the river from last position. He wouldn't
> have called my raise cold before the flop with a hand as weak as QTs, so I don't
> believe he was slow playing the made straight. He would not have slow played a
> set with one of the blinds in the hand, and drawing possibilities alive. He
> might have pocket tens, but probably would have made it three bets before the
> flop. So, I bet the river and got raised. He either has the case jack which is
> probably not good for me, or a busted draw like KQ or AT. I called and was shown
> the best hand the whole way KsJs. I suppose I could have check/called the river,
> but it is difficult to make that play. He would have bet the flop, so I could
> have made a deep checkraise and maybe got him to lay down on the turn. But I had
> sound reasons for betting the flop instead. I could have checkraised the turn
> and he might have read me for a set of nines, but I shouldn't give a possible
> free card here. I couldn't lay it down before the flop, I wanted the small
> blind's action with position. I suppose this hand just shows how dangerous
> playing a QJ is, even from late position. Maybe there's something I missed here,
> so I'm open to any comments or critique.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: QJs - A tough hand to play, Mike Caro, 11. Mar 2003 06:04
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Hi, Andrew --

I think your analysis is excellent. However, you might be over-analyzing a little. This is a hand where you could argue for raising before the flop, then betting when you made the top pair (as you did), just calling before the flop, or doing either and then checking when you paired your queen. Lots of rational ways to play this, depending on the psychological moment and the opponents (which you carefully defined) and NONE is in error -- as long as you mix up your play against astute opponents.

With Q-J suited one away from the button, I often just call (perhaps a third of the time, depending on the opponents). The hand has speculative possibility to go along with it's combined blind-stealing and straightforward high-rank strength (it will often be stronger than any remaining hands), I would be more inclined to raise with Q-J of mixed suits (while seldom calling and usually folding).

One other comment. In this case, you wanted to make sure the solid player on the button folded, which was a main motive for your raise. That's not really a compelling motive, by itself, to raise, because players like that only have a small spectrum of hands wth which they're willing to call a call and not a raise.

In short, I think you played it just fine. It's easy to lose extra money with hands that figure to be slightly best, but turn out not to be.

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: QJs - A tough hand to play, Andrew Wells, 11. Mar 2003 09:18
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
I hadn't considered just calling before the flop. That's an interesting option Mike. When I'm in a steal situation I almost always make the raise with appropriate starting hands. I was hoping to get it heads-up with the small blind of course. I also didn't want the big blind to see the flop for free, and if he called the raise it would help knowing he didn't flop two ragged pairs. Sklansky and Malmuth advocate always raising from the cutoff when you are first in, and are going to play the hand. I'd like to hear more about your concept of sometimes just calling with hands like KQs or KJs in this spot. Maybe I'm going to have to try this more often, and just see how it plays from experience. When other players just call in this spot (holding whatever) and the button has a hand, they usually get raised and isolated. Anyway you've given me something to think about, so thank you.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: QJs - A tough hand to play, stdioh, 11. Mar 2003 08:36
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
on 10. Mar 2003 22:23 Andrew Wells wrote:
> I'm in the cutoff with QcJc and raise. The button is an average regular player
> who is about even for this session. The small blind has deep pockets, just had
> to change a couple of black checks and is a known action player who is currently
> stuck a rack. The big blind is a solid full time pro. I had been picking up a
> lot of blinds earlier, before the action player took the nine seat. The player
> on the button had been showing respect for my late position raises, and had not
> yet played back at me. I was therefore somewhat surprised when he called $30
> cold behind my raise. The small blind called as expected, and the pot was
> offering decent odds for the big blind to call as well. So with 8 small bets in
> the pot, the four of us saw the flop come Jd 8c 4d. Both blinds checked, and I
> bet. I was going to let it go if I got checkraised, but I thought I could be in
> the lead and didn't want to give a free card that might let one of the blinds
> pick up a backdoor diamond draw. I also didn't want to check top pair to the
> button who called two bets cold before the flop. If the button were to raise and
> it became heads-up, I was planning to call and bet at a blank on the turn. The
> button just called, as did the small blind. The pro in the big blind mucked,
> which was as much as I could have hoped for on the flop. The 9s fell on the turn
> giving me a gut shot to go with top pair, but taking away the backdoor flush
> possibility. The small blind checked, and I felt I was still in the lead since
> the button had not raised on the flop. I bet again, and just the button called.
> The Jh came on the river, making the board Jd 8c 4d 9s Jh. The button will
> sometimes bluff raise on the river, and I hadn't seen this move from him as yet.
> He will usually check a busted hand on the river from last position. He wouldn't
> have called my raise cold before the flop with a hand as weak as QTs, so I don't
> believe he was slow playing the made straight. He would not have slow played a
> set with one of the blinds in the hand, and drawing possibilities alive. He
> might have pocket tens, but probably would have made it three bets before the
> flop. So, I bet the river and got raised. He either has the case jack which is
> probably not good for me, or a busted draw like KQ or AT. I called and was shown
> the best hand the whole way KsJs. I suppose I could have check/called the river,
> but it is difficult to make that play. He would have bet the flop, so I could
> have made a deep checkraise and maybe got him to lay down on the turn. But I had
> sound reasons for betting the flop instead. I could have checkraised the turn
> and he might have read me for a set of nines, but I shouldn't give a possible
> free card here. I couldn't lay it down before the flop, I wanted the small
> blind's action with position. I suppose this hand just shows how dangerous
> playing a QJ is, even from late position. Maybe there's something I missed here,
> so I'm open to any comments or critique.

Far be it for me to contradict Roy or Mike, two players for whom I have a great deal of respect, but I don't think you played the hand correctly. I would have limped with JQ suited in the cutoff to encourage more players. The hand is pretty garbagey unless you can get yourself decent pot odds to draw with, as it's going to make its money from straights and flushes, not from one pair.

As for your bet on the flop, I'd say that I would go one of two ways. You've either got to bet and play agressively as you did, or let the free card come and see if you get a better card from it so that you have a hand you can play - then if you don't be ready to chuck that pig.

As for the river play, I really think that your bet was unwarranted. There are a number of hands that can beat you here and you really are setting yourself up to be checkraised by a better hand. Certainly you could call a bet on the river, but I think your bet was a -EV play. Now you've told me about the player you were betting at, so I can see how value betting with a marginal hand against him might be ok, but I still think that was a dicey move.

All told, don't get me wrong; I think that you did play this hand well. I just don't think you played it optimally. Of course I wasn't there to observe the table texture, so I may be out in left field.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: QJs - A tough hand to play, Andrew Wells, 11. Mar 2003 09:30
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
I appreciate your comments. This was a tight 15-30 game, and top pair does hold up well. Position is everything at this table, and I win almost all hands where no one flops anything if I raise the blinds. The big blind might attempt a resteal, but was avoiding me all day. I bet the river because it looked like a situation where I would get raised by a KQ or AT that missed. I thought he would represent a jack and raise if I bet, but would just check behind me otherwise. It would be hard for me to call such a raise holding an ace other than AA or AJ even knowing he might be bluffing. I probably fold AQ in this spot, if I had bet it. I was looking to induce the bluff raise. Against some other opponents I might have given more consideration to a check, but this player was a little different. It seems every street is a tough decision with top pair mediocre kicker.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
       POKER FORUM HOME   |   POKER FORUM   |   LINK TO US   |   ARCHIVE   |   ONLINE POKER Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum  
Getting Started |  UPF Tournaments |  Poker News, Views, Rules |  Poker Strategy & Psychology |  Money and Bankroll
Poker Bonuses & Promotions |  World Series of Poker (WSOP) |  Play Online Poker |  Poker Odds & Statistics |  Tournament Poker |  Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools
Looking for a Poker Game |  Poker Bad Beats |  Not Quite Poker |  Quizzes and Polls |  Forum Suggestions & Bugs

Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network | Find Vancouver Businesses